{"id":13746,"date":"2026-09-20T01:11:57","date_gmt":"2026-09-20T05:11:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-how-to-legalize-medical-psychedelics-in-your-country-tania-de-jong-on-the-playbook-behind-australias-world-first-breakthrough-883\/"},"modified":"2026-09-20T01:11:57","modified_gmt":"2026-09-20T05:11:57","slug":"the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-how-to-legalize-medical-psychedelics-in-your-country-tania-de-jong-on-the-playbook-behind-australias-world-first-breakthrough-883","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-how-to-legalize-medical-psychedelics-in-your-country-tania-de-jong-on-the-playbook-behind-australias-world-first-breakthrough-883\/","title":{"rendered":"The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: How to Legalize Medical Psychedelics in Your Country \u2014 Tania de Jong on The Playbook Behind Australia\u2019s World-First Breakthrough (#883)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Please enjoy this transcript of <a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/09\/18\/how-to-legalize-medical-psychedelics\/\">my conversation with Tania de Jong<\/a>, a co-founder of <a href=\"https:\/\/mindmedicineaustralia.org.au\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Mind Medicine Australia<\/a>.\u00a0In 2023, Tania and her husband Peter helped lead the push that made Australia the first country in the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for psychiatric conditions. I wanted to understand how the hell they helped make that happen and what the rest of the world can learn from it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/09\/18\/how-to-legalize-medical-psychedelics\/#:~:text=All%20episodes-,Show%20Notes,-Connect%20with%20Tania\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Books, people, tools, and resources mentioned in the interview<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/09\/18\/how-to-legalize-medical-psychedelics-transcript\/#tania-de-jong-legal-conditions\">Legal conditions\/copyright information<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"podcast-player\">\n<div class=\"podcast-player-inner-wrap\">\n<p>How to Legalize Medical Psychedelics in Your Country \u2014 Tania de Jong on The Playbook Behind Australia&#8217;s World-First Breakthrough<\/p>\n<p><noscript><iframe src=\"https:\/\/www.art19.com\/shows\/58dacbdc-646e-4585-9914-19c3de11d1ba\/episodes\/8226a13e-77b3-4f59-98af-384d22ce645e\/embed?type=micro\" style=\"width: 100%; height: 30px; border: 0 none;\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Additional podcast platforms<\/h3>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Listen to this episode on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/883-how-to-legalize-medical-psychedelics-in-your-country\/id863897795?i=1000790569549\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/109CeHXRg9osEyuaETomV7?si=e8GyquytTImfqdF2edAa4w\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/+AAKebtWHWEo\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcastaddict.com\/podcast\/2031148#\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Podcast Addict<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/pca.st\/timferriss\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Pocket Casts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castbox.fm\/channel\/id1059468?country=us\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castbox<\/a>,\u00a0<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/music.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLuu6fDad2eJyWPm9dQfuorm2uuYHBZDCB\">YouTube Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/9814f3cc-1dc5-4003-b816-44a8eb6bf666\/the-tim-ferriss-show\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Amazon Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.audible.com\/podcast\/The-Tim-Ferriss-Show\/B08K58QX5W\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Audible<\/a>, or on your favorite podcast platform.<\/strong><\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 2+ hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!<\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Where do you think it makes sense to begin? I mean, we could just begin with \u201cThe Trip Treatment\u201d and how that domino knocked over so many dominoes. And\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It did.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014then what you did with all of the momentum of said dominoes. Do you want to just begin there and we\u2019ll just chat through it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> In 2015, I came across your blog. Well, I\u2019d been signing up to your blog for ages. I mean, I\u2019ve been reading your books and admiring your biohacking courage to try all different things and experiment for yourself because that\u2019s very much how I also like to operate. I just don\u2019t believe anything until I try it myself. And so being that person that had never had any alcohol really, don\u2019t drink coffee, never got high, never had any drugs in my whole life until I read your 5-Bullet blog back in December, I think it was 2015, when you said that you had donated 100,000 US dollars to the Imperial College with psilocybin for depression, I think it was, Tim.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> 2015 would\u2019ve been Johns Hopkins with Roland Griffiths. So there was a depression study there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. So that was like a light bulb went off for me. And I clicked on the link, and I read the article, and it was a fascinating article in <em>The New Yorker<\/em> magazine called \u201cThe Trip Treatment,\u201d and\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Michael Pollan.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> \u2014one\u2014that\u2019s right by\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> The one and only.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> \u2014Michael Pollan. And I said to my husband, \u201cWe have to do this. Please read this article.\u201d And I think he thought I lost it. And he read the article, and then he said, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you see if we can get into a trial?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so we then approached Robin Carhart-Harris, who has subsequently become a great friend of ours. But at that time it was like, \u201cWell, can we get into one of the trials in Europe?\u201d And he said, \u201cWell, no, you don\u2019t qualify. You don\u2019t have a mental illness diagnosis.\u201d And then he proceeded to see if he could introduce us to The Psychedelic Society, and finally, we were introduced to a guide in the Netherlands. And we flew over to Europe, and we had this extraordinary experience where we took a large dose of psilocybin. But for me, I had spent the previous six months when we\u2019d planned this just getting more and more nervous. I was just petrified.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Sounds normal.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. And I was like, \u201cAm I going to lose my mind? What\u2019s going to happen?\u201d Meantime, my husband\u2019s just not engaged in it at all. And so it got to the day before where we\u2019re going to go and meet this guide, and I wrote an email to my accountant, and I said, \u201cIf anything\u2019s to happen to me in the next 24 to 48 hours, these are my last wishes.\u201d I was that scared, scared of losing control, scared of what this would all mean. I\u2019d never had any drugs in my whole life before. And was I going to go crazy?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So anyway, we went, and my husband picked up the guide at the airport where we\u2019re meeting him. He surrounded him in his white robe, sort of Ram Dass-style, hippie Indian white robes, gave him a huge bear hug. Then my husband asked him all the way back, \u201cWell, what\u2019s going to happen?\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u201cHow does this work?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Run a show for me. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Right. And after 45 minutes, he was no wiser, and then literally, we, the next day, took the medicines with the guide, and we were blasted into multiple realms of consciousness, all different dimensions of consciousness. And it was an extraordinary experience, as you well know, a sense of being connected to self, to others, the planet, feeling like you\u2019re part of everything, that everything\u2019s part of you. I think I said to you last time we spoke that I never saw a single piece of nature the same since that day. So every seashell, cloud, leaf, blade of grass, just everything was transformed by that experience, and I could see the energy in everything. And my husband was also completely blown away. It brought us much closer together, which was also something, well, we didn\u2019t plan for, but it was a fantastic bonus. And we then just started going, \u201cWell, what has just happened to us?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And so it was such an extraordinary experience. It took us about a year to really integrate what had happened, and we kept talking about it, and it was a true mystical experience at the highest level.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> When you say it took a year to integrate, was it really just letting the snow globe settle and seeing what was discernible after things had settled, or were you using therapy to talk through the experience afterwards? What did integration look like for you guys?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, it was sort of the snow globe. Everything had sort of been blowing like a huge fireworks display, and actually, it was like a fireworks display at times. And so for us, it was letting that settle. And then for me, I\u2019d thought, \u201cWell, there\u2019s no way I\u2019d ever do that again.\u201d It was challenging. I mean, it was beautiful, but it was also challenging because a lot of material came up relating to my ancestors, probably relating to other ancestral lineages that I\u2019d had before. And I thought there\u2019s no way I\u2019m going to do this again.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But then as the year went on and we were going to go back to Europe again and stuff, I thought, okay, well, maybe we\u2019ll have another go and see if it\u2019s the same or if that was just a fluke or what happened. And so we went back again and we worked with the same guide, Dutch guide, and we had an even higher dose, and it was even more profound. And so by that stage, we said to one another, wow, well, if this is having this impact on us\u2014and it was really healing us personally. There was something going on. There was some kind of magic. I mean, magic mushrooms, but it was like there was some kind of golden thread that was trying to connect us back to ourselves, to integrate us into ourselves and then connect us to one another and to other people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And we said to ourselves, we\u2019d already founded five charities between us by that stage, and we just thought, wow, well, if this is happening to us, imagine if this could be applied to all the people who are suffering with homelessness or domestic violence or unemployment or disabilities, people suffering with depression that we come across through all of our charitable work, because underpinning all kinds of disadvantage is usually some kind of mental illness, some kind of trauma, depression, something that has happened to that person in their lives. And it\u2019s usually that they\u2019ve ended up being unemployed or committing domestic violence or whatever it happens to be, but it\u2019s through the intergenerational trauma that they\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so Peter and I just started looking and going, \u201cLet\u2019s meet all of the people around the world. Let\u2019s go to all the conferences. Let\u2019s start meeting all the researchers.\u201d And we did that, and we started meeting researchers from all over the world, which was absolutely extraordinary. And we attended events, and we learned everything we could. We watched every video. We listened to every recording that we could. And then by that stage, Peter and I were like, \u201cThis is extraordinary.\u201d And we spoke with Rick Doblin at about that stage, which was in 2018. And in 2018, he said to me, \u201cTania, I think you should set up a charity in Australia to do this.\u201d And we were mad enough to do that. I mean\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And for people who don\u2019t have the context\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> \u2014we\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014just to describe Rick briefly, Rick is really one of the primary drivers, probably the primary driver, I would say. And there are a lot of people, of course, who have played large roles behind the psychedelic movement through this organization called MAPS, and they have been predominantly focused on MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD. That\u2019s been the main indication. So he has been a fixture. He\u2019s very unorthodox. He is very well-educated in policy, incredibly colorful. He\u2019s just one hell of a character. And I wanted people to have just a little bit of\u2014but he\u2019s been forging ahead since the \u201970s or \u201980s, well before there was any kind of tip of the hat from anywhere in the mainstream. So that\u2019s Rick Doblin, and he\u2019s very good at helping other people and encouraging other people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, I mean, absolute inspiration.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. I mean, he\u2019s dedicated his whole life to this work, and it\u2019s just extraordinary. And he was a total inspiration to us, as was Roland Griffiths and Robin and David Nutt, Professor David Nutt, the head of neuropsychopharmacology at Imperial College London. Just amazing people, these legends.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And the thing was, in Australia, we really didn\u2019t have a lot going on. There was one trial in the making. It was a trial for end-of-life stress and anxiety through a terminal diagnosis, which had been replicated in other parts of the world, like at New York University and Johns Hopkins University. And we just knew that if Australia could start to position itself in this space, that there might be a chance to heal a lot of people. So we did start a charity, Mind Medicine Australia. We launched it in February 2019, and we started working in this field starting to work out, well, how could we get these medicines to Australians as quickly, safely, accessibly as possible and cost effectively as well. We originally approached the Therapeutic Goods Administration, I think it was in late 2020, and we asked them if it would be possible if the medicines could be rescheduled. And they\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So let me pause you and apologize, Tania, just for\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, no, go for it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014the Yankees listening and others. The TGA is roughly analogous to the FDA in the US. So if you want a new drug approved, if you have something that is in a highly restricted drug class and you want to make it more readily available through prescription with fewer controls, et cetera, then you have to contend with, in our case, the FDA, but in your case, the TGA. Is that a fair way to put it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s exactly right. And these bodies require a lot of data and evidence, and generally speaking, pharmaceutical companies make applications to them for the rescheduling of medicines. And in this case, we wanted to make an application to move these medicines from prohibited substances, which in Australia was called Schedule 9, but in the US, it\u2019s called Schedule 1, to a Schedule 8 medicine, which is a controlled medicine, so that it could be used in clinical environments.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so we started applying to the TGA and we put an application in at their encouragement. And then at the interim stage, it was knocked back. And then at the final stage, despite many public submissions, it was also knocked back. And so we thought, let\u2019s put it in again. And one of the things that the TGA has to do is it has to provide its reasons for knocking it back. So my husband, who\u2019s an extraordinary intellect and strategic, I guess, mind, started really working on these applications and really addressing their concerns.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so then we put in another application to reschedule psilocybin MDMA for the treatment of depression and trauma in Australia. And again, at the interim stage, the application was knocked back, and they had to provide their reasons, and then we put in a final submission. And in that period, there was another public consultation period, and we did this huge campaign, and we were educating people all the time through this period. We were presenting webinars, and we were presenting talks to politicians and health professionals and anyone we could, business leaders. We were talking\u2014we probably gave thousands of presentations about these medicines over that period. And then finally, we put in a submission, and over 13,000 Australians supported this submission through public submissions to our Therapeutic Goods Administration supporting the medicine. And over 98% of people supported the rescheduling of these medicines, and this was the largest amount of public submissions ever received by our regulators for rescheduling any medicines. So there was this huge pressure. And\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Not every one of those recipients was super happy about the volume, I imagine.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Right, probably, because they had to publish\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. The\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> \u2014them all as well on\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> \u2014their platform.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s a lot.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So a couple of questions. At that point, was it still just you and your husband who were working on this, or had you assembled volunteers to assist you guys in various ways? What did it look like at that point?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, it was like this massive movement by then. I mean, we had started chapters in communities all around Australia. So we had over 30 chapters in place like Byron Bay or Brisbane, Darwin, Perth, even chapters in New Zealand.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And that would be chapters of Mind Medicine Australia. So it\u2019d be like MMA\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, people who were just\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014put in place.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> \u2014behind this mission. Yeah, just chapters and chapters of people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> When you have chapters, how did you\u2014I\u2019m just thinking of the challenges involved with retail and franchising or whatever, like quality control and giving people marching directions of some type. When people would reach out, how would you enable them or what materials would you send them? What would you encourage them to do if you\u2019ve got people in Byron Bay and 29 other locations across Australia? What would you guys send to them?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Well, we had templates for everything. So we had precedence and templates, and we had how to actually do this. So we made it as easy as we could for the public to put submissions in. And we had volunteers in all those places who were leading these campaigns and getting a whole lot of people together in those places.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But in addition to that, we also had clinicians. So we had already started training clinicians through our world-leading Certificate in Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy. So we started that training in 2021, and we\u2019ve already trained now over 750 clinicians, so psychiatrists, psychologists, doctors, nurses, oc therapists, social workers, counselors, you name it. We\u2019ve trained a lot of clinicians in Australia. So we already had an enormous amount of clinicians who were starting to put pressure on their peak bodies and professional bodies, as well as the general public. So there was also an enormous amount of people, not necessarily in our chapters, but just people who\u2014just families, had people who were suffering with mental illness in their families. There was workplaces. So there was a lot of people who had people in their workplaces suffering with depression or trauma or addictions. And people just started to really jump on the bandwagon to start to really learn about these medicines as sacred medicines.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And the medicines at that point, just to define the molecules we\u2019re talking about, that was MDMA and psilocybin?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes. Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Let me bring us back for a moment to David Nutt. And the reason I\u2019m going to bring David Nutt, N-U-T-T, back into the picture is because in the process of doing homework for this conversation came across a number of allies that you had recruited over time, right? You really had a multi-pronged approach and I want to talk about some of those.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. That\u2019s a big approach.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. So this is abc.net.au, and it mentions you engaging new lobbyists, \u201cHawker Britton, known for their cozy relationships with the labor government,\u201d and that goes on da, da, da, \u201cunderstand the dynamics of Canberra. The organization then flew out Imperial College of London Neuropsychopharmacologist David Nutt for a roadshow up and down the East Coast.\u201d And it goes on to mention him as one of the celebrities of sorts in psychedelic circles, certainly within scientific circles. And I\u2019m going back to the piece here, \u201cDuring a whirlwind tour sponsored by herbal tincture and organic chocolate brands,\u201d perfect, \u201che addressed packed town halls in Byron Bay, Sydney and Canberra,\u201d if I\u2019m pronouncing that correctly, \u201cand Melbourne. Then there were black-tie events with philanthropists and stakeholders at the Australian clubs in Sydney and Melbourne.\u201d It goes on and on. Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So if there\u2019s any more color to that, I\u2019d love to hear the purpose of doing that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, absolutely. I mean, that was a huge part of it. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. And the reason I\u2019m bringing this up and part of the reason I wanted to have this conversation is because you did something very remarkable, and there were other parties involved and a lot going on, but I mean, MMA was a real driving force behind some incredible world firsts on the playing field of global pharmacology and mental health treatments. You\u2019ve accomplished something really impressive. And there are pieces of the playbook that I think people could apply in other locations, and this would be, I think, potentially one example of that. So could you speak to what you did with the roadshow with David and maybe how you used lobbyists? And also, how did you pay for all that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, I mean, these are really important questions, and we are being asked by a lot of other countries and organizations how we did it. And it was very tough, but we tried everything. So we never gave up. That was one aspect of\u2014and my husband and I are very persistent people. So every roadblock that we get, we think, \u201cOkay, what are we going to do now?\u201d And we would climb around or over or through that wall, whatever we could do to keep going. So what happened was in 2022, David, who\u2019d become an incredibly good friend of ours and someone we deeply respected and we just adore his humor and his intellect\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How did you first connect with David?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, so that was\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Cold email or\u2014how did that happen?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. I mean, so as you would see, one of the other really strong prongs of our strategy was to put together this world-leading advisory panel. And so we\u2019ve got about 75 or so leaders in this field or people who are really great advocates for these medicines, scientists, doctors, researchers, and others. And I just started reaching out to people, but also in 2018, I went to a conference run by Usona in Madison in Wisconsin, and I spoke at that conference.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. That\u2019s a trip. It\u2019s a bit of a trip for you.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, it was, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So for people who don\u2019t know, the organization, at least last I checked, predominantly focused on psilocybin.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Correct. And their medicine\u2019s likely to be registered as just about as soon as Compass Pathways, another huge pharma company who\u2019s an applicant for psilocybin. Over the next six months or so, we anticipate a number of these medicines becoming registered medicines. We can talk about that shortly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But back to the time that we brought David Nutt out. So basically, I had approached a lot of people. I\u2019d also met a lot of people at Usona, and so I then started inviting them to join our advisory panel. And so that was how I met Robin, Roland, David Nutt, all of these people. And as we\u2019d meet one person, then they\u2019d say, \u201cWell, have you met this person and have you met that person?\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Let me pause you, Tania, for a second. So I know you\u2019re persistent, but these people get asked to do all sorts of stuff all the time, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How did you make it easy or compelling for them to say yes? What\u2019s the pitch? What was the pitch to someone like Robin? Because at that point, I\u2019m trying to put a date to it, but Robin at that point had probably appeared, I\u2019m just guessing on the timeline here, in <em>How to Change Your Mind<\/em>, he\u2019s somewhat of a main scientific protagonist\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014certainly figure within <em>How to Change Your Mind<\/em>, a book by Michael Pollan that really shifted the tectonic plates of what was possible for psychedelics in the US and elsewhere in some ways, in a lot of ways. And many, if not most of the best known philanthropists and supporters of psychedelics, not all of them, but a very high percentage would reach back to that as the tipping point for their interest. So how do you get then Robin\u2019s the hottest girl at the dance? And he\u2019s very charismatic, he\u2019s good on camera, he\u2019s good on audio.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I met them. I met them, Tim. I met most of them actually at the Usona conference. And also, I happened to sing at the Usona conferences and speak. So I gave a speech. I spoke about what we were hoping to achieve in Australia, also sang. I serenaded Roland Griffith. It was beautiful. I mean, I miss that guy so much. And so I met these people and we just connected and they were inspired by the fact that we were trying to move the needle in Australia. I don\u2019t think that they thought that we could do it. And to be honest, I didn\u2019t know that we could do it either. It was just persisting and persisting. And so I think people just started joining us because maybe they believed that we could do it. I mean, we had set up five charities before that had already done some significant things.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How did you end up speaking at the conference? Because that seems to me, have an important piece of the recipe\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It was.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014for why suddenly you could talk to them afterwards. And they were already a warm audience at that point. So how did you end up speaking at that conference?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Well, that was through Bill Linton. And so Bill Linton is the founder of Usona and as I\u2019m sure you know, and you know him, and he\u2019s just a lovely guy. And again, we connected. I wrote to him.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> What did you say to Bill in the email?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I\u2019d really like to speak at your conference. In fact, I think they even had heard what we were doing and that we were trying to do this in Australia. And then they actually, I said, \u201cLook, I can also sing.\u201d And maybe that was part of it. And then he just said, \u201cWell, look, I\u2019d like you to come over. I\u2019d like you to sing.\u201d I think we probably had a Zoom call or something like that. And they then invited me to speak and to sing. And it was a long trip. It was a very long trip and literally I had to get off the plane.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It was a very long trip.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> And I was in an altered state. I was in some time warp then.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, I wanted to sidebar quickly that sometimes it is the weirdest, not that singing is weird. I have much stranger obsessions and interests, but it\u2019s the most unexpected, maybe, talents or side interests or fill in the blank that you do on the weekends and evenings, that sometimes is the thing that opens the door because it is the thing that other people aren\u2019t leading with. So when you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, and I also sing.\u201d And they\u2019re like, \u201cYou know what? She\u2019s scrappy. She\u2019s willing to fly all the way from Australia. Oh my God. To Wisconsin? Okay, sure. Why not? Let\u2019s give it a shot.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Well also, I think by then I\u2019d also had that connection with Ram Dass. Yes. So that was also a help. I haven\u2019t mentioned that and that was very significant. So actually, and I want to come back to David with you, because that\u2019s really important. But back in 2016, after you\u2019d woken me up into this whole space, and then we did the medicine with this Dutch guy, and he played us some Ram Dass at the end of the medicine session. And I went, \u201cWho\u2019s this guy? This is amazing.\u201d And my husband\u2019s one of these guys who, when he hears someone really inspiring, he goes, \u201cWell, is there a way we could meet them?\u201d And so, okay, well, why not try and meet Ram Dass? So what we did was we wrote to him via, again, his people, and we found out that you could indeed spend a week living at Ram Dass\u2019s house in Hawaii and get to spend time with him living there. So we were lucky enough that we got to fly to Maui.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Hold on. How does that work? Because I\u2019m sure a lot of people would love to hang out with Ram Dass.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah no, really.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> What are the hurdles you have to climb to live at his house for a week? Or how does it work? Or is it just pay for a plane or how is it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> We made a donation. We made a donation and we got to live in the house that was on his land there and live right next to him. And then every day or two we\u2019d get to hang out a little bit with Ram Dass. And so we\u2019d come into the main house, we\u2019d spend some time meditating with him. He\u2019d invite us to some of the ceremonies that he\u2019d be having at the house. We even went to the beach with him because he had this incredible wheelchair that had these amazing inflatable tires and he\u2019d be wheeled out in his wheelchair out into the ocean. And one particular day there\u2019d be two rainbows that appear when Ram Dass gets out into the ocean. I mean, it was like just pinching yourself, like, is this really happening? And a lot of it was sitting in silence with him because he had had that stroke and by this stage, it was about a year or so before he actually would pass.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so he was still vibrant though. And when you looked in Ram Dass\u2019s eyes, you could just see yourself reflected back in him. And I remember singing to him as well and there were tears rolling down his face when I sang to him. And it was a song called Coming Home. It was all about coming home to yourself. But the minute that we would mention psychedelics to Ram Dass, his eyes would light up and he\u2019d start talking about his time that he gave his guru in India this huge dose of\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Craziest story.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> You\u2019ve heard this story, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> And nothing happened.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It\u2019s in <em>Be Here Now<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> His guru in India. So Ram Dass, again, just to provide a little context for people who are like, what are they talking about? All right. Ram Dass, which is I believe servant of\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> God.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014Ram. Yeah, Servant of the God, is the non-birth name of Richard, the man formerly known as Richard Alpert, who was at Harvard with Timothy Leary, who some people may recognize. And they were both kicked out of Harvard, little known fact, in part due to Andrew Weil, then an undergrad writing, I think it was in <em>The Harvard Crimson<\/em>, about their dosing of psilocybin. And there was some discussion, I don\u2019t know if it was verified, of them giving it to undergrads and it became this huge scandal and they were booted out. And at one point Timothy Leary was designated by President Nixon as the most dangerous man in America, which is ridiculous in retrospect, but there you have it. And there\u2019s a lot more we could say about that, but suffice to say, Richard Alpert decides to go to India. And at one point he somehow finds his way. This was pre-internet, pre-smartphone, somehow finds his way to this guru. Again, which was described in <em>Be Here Now<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Maharaj-ji. Maharaj-ji.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, Maharaj-ji. And he\u2019s, I think, trying to explain to him something about psychedelics. And he\u2019s like, \u201cWell, do you have any?\u201d And he\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, I do.\u201d And he had\u2014Ram Dass had LSD and he gave him, it was either 400 or 600 micrograms.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Huge dose.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> This guy had never taken any psychedelics. Took that and just sat there and clearly would\u2019ve set in and an hour later as if nothing was happening, just looked at him with a smile and was like, \u201cInteresting.\u201d And I think he said something like, \u201cSure, you can peek in and say hello to Christ consciousness or whatever you want to call it, but you\u2019re not actually going to get to know the depth.\u201d But the fact that somebody could take 400 or 600 micrograms. To put that in perspective, 100 micrograms is considered a, let\u2019s just call it standard hit. If I were to take 200 micrograms, I would be completely incapacitated for 8 to 12 hours. So if somebody could take four to 600\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I think that would even happen to me on 50, to be honest.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. And could just carry on having a conversation as if they only had a glass of water is somewhat mind-boggling.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It\u2019s bizarre.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So yes, and Ram Dass went on to do a lot of writing and a lot of recording, and it\u2019s just incredibly compelling\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Prolific.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014to listen to. So you spent time with Ram Dass. So the Ram Dass part\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> We spent time with Ram Dass.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014ends up being helpful to get to Madison. And then Bill Linton\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, it definitely did.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014and co invite you with open arms. You sing, you talk, you meet this whole cast of characters, including, I\u2019m guessing, was David Nutt there in Madison or\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I\u2019m not sure that David was there, but I mean Robin and Roland and everyone else was there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I think they\u2019re all a stone\u2019s throw from\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> So then this was the year before we started Mind Medicine Australia. So then I wrote to David and I said, \u201cWe\u2019re launching a charity. It\u2019s on February the 13th.\u201d That was the date of our launch. \u201cWould you come to Australia and speak at the launch?\u201d And so we flew David to Australia. He spoke at our launch, which was at the University of Melbourne, and we then became very friendly with David and his wife, who\u2019s delightful. And we\u2019ve brought him over a few times since then. And that launch was packed out. And then what happened was in\u2014I mean, cut a long story short, I\u2019m cutting through a whole lot of things here, but in 2022, we invited him to Australia to present at some town hall events in public, but then we also brought him to the Therapeutic Goods Administration.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And we asked the Therapeutic Goods Administration if we could present to them, and we asked the head of the Therapeutic Goods Administration how many people approximately would come to the meeting, that we would have David Nutt there. And we would also have a woman there whose husband had tragically lost his life because he got depression and had not been able to cope. I\u2019ll talk about that very briefly in a second. So what happened was the head of the TGA said, \u201cOh, there\u2019ll be probably 10 or 15 people that turn up to the meeting.\u201d 140 people turned up to the meeting. Some of them were in the room, some of them were on Zoom.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> These are all people internal to the TGA. These are all employees.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, they were like Department of Health people, executives, all from all different parts of the Department of Health and the TGA. And so what happened was we had invited this woman called Vanessa to speak just before David Nutt, and Vanessa\u2019s husband had got depression a few years prior, just out of the blue, all of a sudden got depression really badly. And he woke up one day and he said to her, \u201cI need to go to a hospital.\u201d And so she took him to a doctor and they started him on some SSRIs, antidepressants, and then they didn\u2019t work. And then he got taken to an institution because he was really unwell. He was put in that institution. And they\u2019ve got a young daughter, very successful man, by the way, no previous history of depression, just came on. And so he was put in this institution that didn\u2019t help. They saw every professor and expert that they could. She\u2019s kept a 20-page dossier of every treatment she tried.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">During the middle of him trying many, many treatments, she rang me up and she said, \u201cTania, I\u2019ve heard about psychedelic assisted therapies. Could Franco\u2014\u201d His name was Franco, \u201cCould he get psychedelic assisted therapies?\u201d And I said, \u201cLook, no, not in Australia at the moment. We\u2019re trying really hard to get these medicines rescheduled, but he would have to go overseas to do this legally, like in the Netherlands where psilocybin truffles are legal, for example, or somewhere else.\u201d He was not well enough to be taken overseas and they didn\u2019t want to break the law by going underground in Australia, and this applies to a lot of people. And so what happened was, they kept trying all the different other treatments, the professors, he was in the institutions. She said to me, she rang me about another year later, said, \u201cHe\u2019s begging me to go every day. He wants to go. He wants to leave.\u201d Hang in there. We are really working hard on this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Anyway, he couldn\u2019t wait. She had kept this 20-page dossier and she got up in front of the TGA and she said, \u201cI believe that if my husband had have had access to these treatments, that he might still be alive today and that our young daughter would still have a father. And this is all the treatments we tried. It\u2019s not like we didn\u2019t try to get Franco well. We did.\u201d And there wasn\u2019t a dry eye in the room at this stage. And then Professor Nutt comes on and starts presenting about the science and all the research, the data, the evidence that you know of. By that stage, there\u2019d been a lot of trials, as you know, that had taken place. So he presented and then we presented, and still everyone was going, \u201cThere\u2019s no way this is going to happen. There\u2019s no way the rescheduling\u2019s going to happen.\u201d There were scientists and clinicians and others that just said, \u201cIt\u2019s not going to happen.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But this was in about November of 2022, and we just kept pushing. And then in February, February the 3rd it was, 2023, we\u2019re standing in the kitchen and my husband goes, \u201cIt\u2019s been rescheduled.\u201d And I just said, \u201cNo, you can\u2019t be serious.\u201d I said, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to show me this.\u201d I read the document and I kept thinking there must be an error in the document. Can\u2019t have been rescheduled. And no, it\u2019s been rescheduled. So we start dancing around the kitchen and this is unbelievable. This is really amazing. We were so thrilled. Then the headlines start coming out from around the world. Australia has rescheduled. Australia\u2019s the first country to do this. Look at Australia. Now Australia\u2019s leading the world in this field and this is surreal. This is so incredible that this actually happened in Australia because Australia tends to be more of a follower than a leader often, but to do this was incredible.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So then a few months later, the rules changed so that the psychiatrists could actually start to treat patients in clinics. And that was the whole purpose of this, was that there should be clinics around Australia with clinicians that we\u2019d been training since 2021 and that patients should start to be treated with these incredible sacred medicines, with therapy obviously. And so there was these multidisciplinary teams and psychiatrists could start applying to the therapeutic goods administration for what\u2019s called an authorized prescriber status. So you, psychiatrist, put an application into the TGA, and we help a lot of psychiatrists do these applications because they\u2019re quite onerous. And they have to put in their protocols, how much medicine they\u2019re going to use, where they\u2019re going to practice from, all these different protocols. And then those are reviewed by the TGA and an independent ethics committee. And if they get the TGA stamp and the ethics committee stamp, they can start using psychedelic assisted therapy, psilocybin assisted therapy and MDMA assisted therapy in their clinics.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so there\u2019s now over 20 clinics around Australia, mostly led by clinicians that we have trained through our certificate in psychedelic assisted therapies. And over 400 patients or so, roughly, have been treated. Now that doesn\u2019t sound like a lot because there\u2019s millions of Australians who are suffering with post-traumatic stress disorder and depression, and there\u2019s millions of people globally suffering from these conditions who are not getting well, like Franco. And one of the arguments that was really important for the Therapeutic Goods Administration was there\u2019s a risk to not doing anything. So if you don\u2019t do anything, if you don\u2019t reschedule these medicines, that\u2019s actually a risk because patients who\u2019ve tried everything, like Franco, might end up taking their own lives and that would be tragic. And we, through the period that we were making these applications, heard of other stories than Franco. We had a lot of people who write to us. They texted us, they emailed us, and they begged us.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We even had politicians writing to us saying they\u2019ve got a son, or constituent saying, \u201cCould we please provide the medicines to them?\u201d And we said, \u201cWell, no, we can\u2019t until these medicines are rescheduled.\u201d So we kept having people begging us for the medicines. We obviously couldn\u2019t provide them. We\u2019re not a medicine provider.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And important to say to everyone that these medicines, you don\u2019t take them lightly, you take them in a very controlled setting. Personally, I love nature, but we have to do it in clinics in Australia under these circumstances. It\u2019s really important for the patient to have the right preparation and mindset so that they can be open to whatever is coming through the altered state and then bring all of those insights for their life, their work, their health, whatever it happens to be back into their life. And usually that\u2019s done through therapy. So a patient goes through a three or four month process, protocol, and we are seeing 60 to 80% remission rates in Australia, which is replicating what we\u2019ve seen in trials around the world. So of those 400 patients that have been treated so far around Australia, 60 to 80% of those are going to remissions and there\u2019s been no serious adverse events.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> What does the pie chart split look like for out of those 400, how many are psilocybin for depression versus MDMA, assisted psychotherapy for PTSD?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, so more of them are MDMA, so more psychiatrists started out doing MDMA for trauma.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It\u2019s probably a good idea. I think it\u2019s good to get comfortable skiing the blue squares before the black diamonds.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Tends to be more manageable.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> And many of the psychiatrists felt more comfortable administering MDMA first. There are some patients in Australia, I think, who\u2019ve been administered both medicines, not at the same time, but subsequently, but it\u2019s probably about a 70\/30 split. But psilocybin is starting to creep up, and we\u2019re also seeing psilocybin now being researched for a whole range of other conditions, as you know. So for addictions and obsessive compulsive disorder, eating disorders, cluster headaches, fibromyalgia.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, I think MDMA\u2019s still very underestimated as a tool. It\u2019s been in the zeitgeist long enough that a lot of the writing or videos or podcasts that get attention are focused on the latest and greatest, or what they might consider the new kid on the block, like a 5\u2010MeO\u2010DMT. Okay, everything\u2019s about 5\u2010MeO\u2010DMT because it can be crammed into 15 minutes and it\u2019s the businessman\u2019s path to God and all this stuff.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Correct, correct.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Which from a commercialization perspective, I understand. But at the same time, you have something that is already very well researched, that has actually been around a very, very long time. I want to say it\u2019s the 1920s when MDMA was first patented, and then it was shelved, and then the patent expired, and then Sasha Shulgin, his little lab and his tasting parties conjured up hundreds of psychedelics. If anyone\u2019s ever heard of 2C-B, 2C-E, you can thank Sasha Shulgin, but also resurrected MDMA, which basically replaced MDA as the underground therapists tool. And I think MDMA is very underestimated, given how\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> So do I.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014broadly speaking, how manageable it is relative to many of the other psychedelics that we could discuss. And I think partially because it doesn\u2019t necessarily, I would say pretty typically, does not provide the 17th dimension shattered into stardust, technicolor, grand finale fireworks show, which make for good stories that it gets underestimated as a tool because it\u2019s maybe not making the rounds at as many cocktail parties because it\u2019s unlikely you\u2019re going to be like, \u201cYeah, and then these dancing crocodiles with sapphire eyes came out and danced around me and so-and-so,\u201d which you\u2019ll certainly get if you\u2019re hanging out with your ayahuasca friends. So MDMA is really, I think, a tremendous tool, given the risk profile, given the manageability of it relative to other things. Question, I suppose, related to the integration that you already mentioned. Is the therapy that acts as the lattice work of support for these experiences in Australia, is it standardized or is it really up to the clinician and the patients to select the therapeutic modality? Is it standardized perhaps in the way that MAPS was trying to standardize with IFS informed dyads and things of this type?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> So it\u2019s not standardized, and many of our clinicians, the ones who\u2019ve done our certificate in psychedelic assisted therapies, use a whole lot of different modalities. So yes, some of them may use parts and IFS therapy, Internal Family Systems therapy, or they may use other types of therapy. So there\u2019s all sorts of different therapies that we encourage our clinicians to look at. And that might be, and I feel like one of the things that\u2019s becoming most important is even just nutrition. So just coming out of this experience and having the right nutrition. Because if you go back into your life and just start eating all, say if you were eating a lot of sugar before or drinking a lot of alcohol and you go back to that, well, then you\u2019re probably going to relapse. So there\u2019s all sorts of things around nutrition and exercise that we\u2019re hoping will be more and more included as integration therapy post-treatment for anyone doing psychedelic assisted therapies.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But we don\u2019t believe that there should be a cookie cutter approach. Every therapist has different skills that they bring to the table, and many of them, most of the therapists that we\u2019re training are trauma-informed, but not all of them. And they\u2019re just learning and they\u2019re learning to bring their own skills and work out what works for each patient. And I think that matters a lot because everyone that we\u2019re treating through these clinics, they\u2019re all individuals and not everything\u2019s going to work identically for every patient, just the same way that the dose of the medicine\u2019s not going to be identical for each patient.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How many patients would you hope, not in a pie in the sky, best case green lights all the way scenario, but in a base case, not worst case, not best case, right down the middle case, how many patients do you think could be served with these medicines over the next three years in Australia? What do you think?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s an exponential thing. So we\u2019re seeing a huge exponential growth. So just even now as we speak, we just found out that now there\u2019s 120 authorized prescribing psychiatrists in Australia for either MDMA or psilocybin or both medicines. So that is a huge jump. We started with one or two psychiatrists back at the start of 2024. We\u2019re now at the middle, latter part of 2026, and that is an exponential increase in authorized prescribing psychiatrists. In the first year, we trained about 80 therapists. We\u2019ve now trained 750. In the first year, only a handful of patients, maybe, I don\u2019t know, 15, 20 patients were treated. Now there\u2019s been nearly 400. So maybe it will get to 5,000 by then. This is me being conservative because well, it could be a lot more, but maybe 5,000 is a realistic number, but that\u2019s a fraction of who needs it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Right, which I understand, but I don\u2019t want to let the dream of boiling the ocean minimize the impact of even 400 people, because what people listening may not realize is that if you look back at the early studies, if you look at a lot of current studies, they are expensive, at least in the United States. I\u2019ll speak for the United\u2014well, speak for the United States, what a sentence. I will speak to some of the clinical trials in the US, many of which I\u2019ve been involved with. And because these compounds are still schedule one, it is incredibly difficult, time-consuming, and expensive to recruit subjects, to get approvals through ethics boards, IRBs, et cetera. And as a result, what you could get on the street very easily, in mushroom chocolates or otherwise, for $50 for a patient in a proper clinical trial run at a university could cost $15,000 per person, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Something like that. It is incredibly expensive. And what that means is you end up with these studies that are well-designed and hopefully properly powered. And people can dig into that if they want online, if they want to read up on what that means from a statistical perspective. But you end up with 10 people, you end up with eight people, maybe you end up with 15 people. And certainly if you\u2019re a for-profit company, Compass and others have been able to, and have had to, have larger sample sizes and larger cohorts and so on and so forth as you move through the different phases. 400\u2019s a lot. But\u2014there\u2019s a big but, and I\u2019m hoping you can tell me the answer. I\u2019m sure you can.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Is there some type of requirement for data reporting from people who are authorized? Because it\u2019s most valuable as a way of building momentum and creating a virtuous cycle if there is mandatory data reporting that then provides a signal or many signals.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Well, no, and that\u2019s a really important part of our strategy. So our strategy at Mind Medicine Australia was to build the ecosystem so that we could make sure everyone\u2019s trained, that the public and clinicians were fully educated, and we keep doing that, that there is ongoing research for new conditions, that clinical rollouts and the medicine supply can happen very smoothly. And then there\u2019s the whole payor part, which I\u2019ll come to you. So there\u2019s the whole cost of it all. But the data collection\u2019s really, really important.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And one of the things David Nutt did with us was he was really like, \u201cWe have to make sure there\u2019s real world evidence being collected.\u201d So he worked with Professor Paul Fitzgerald at Australian National University and Mind Medicine Australia has funded a registry, which we have no influence on, we simply fund it at the Australian National University, which collates real world evidence, the data from the baseline of a patient when they go in for the treatment, then what they\u2019re like when they come out of the treatment. And that\u2019s being collected all the time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It hasn\u2019t published yet, but we hope that it will publish over the next few months, and then continue to publish periodically as they collate more and more data. And this data is critical because this is what can show the government. Well, firstly, they know there\u2019s been no adverse events, serious ones because there\u2019s been nothing reported to the TGA, but it\u2019s also really important to show the government, \u201cWow, well these remission rates around 60 to 80%,\u201d that\u2019s compared against 10 to 15% for existing treatments for PTSD and psilocybin with MDMA and psilocybin treatment for depression and trauma in Australia at the moment.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So 10 to 15% versus 60 to 80% remission rates, that starts to become very important for a government because they go, \u201cWow, wow, there could be some serious cost savings here. We could save millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollar over the course of a patient\u2019s lifetime.\u201d And one of the other things we\u2019ve done at MMA is we\u2019ve helped really bring on the payors for these treatments.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So we now have the Department of Veterans Affairs who are supporting treatments for veterans. We have the National Disability Insurance Scheme also funding treatments. And we have Medibank, which is our largest health insurer, who have basically said that any eligible Gold members of Medibank can get pretty much the whole treatment cost paid apart from a couple of thousand dollars.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> What does it look like to recruit\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> So everyone\u2019s shifting to Medibank.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014any of these payers? So how do you even bring the first of these payers online? What does the outreach look like?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, so we went to them all from early on. So we were talking to the Department of Veterans Affairs from early on because we had seen what happened in the US with veterans and we knew that that was a core strategy that Rick Doblin and MAPS had also used. And it\u2019s an important strategy, because veterans and first responders have served their nation and more veterans die through their own hands, through suicide, than die in the battlefield. And they experienced so much trauma in the work that they\u2019ve done. And we knew that the Department of Veterans Affairs was really struggling with the amount of veteran suicides that were occurring.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So they were someone we started talking to and presenting to from very early on in our time as Mind Medicine Australia. The National Disability Insurance Scheme came on board because they obviously want to try and reduce the costs of treatments. And this is a really good way to reduce costs over time. Though the cost of the treatment is relatively expensive upfront, over the course of a patient\u2019s lifetime, the potential cost savings are enormous. Rick Doblin and MAPS did some economic modeling and showed that the cost per patient, this was a few years ago already, could be well over $100,000 US of cost savings.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So we knew that cost would be a barrier, and so we also started a patient support fund at Mind Medicine Australia. And how we managed to do a lot of this was through our own philanthropy.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So we\u2019re philanthropists and social entrepreneurs. And then we got other philanthropists that we know to come on board and start to support our patient support fund and to start to support Mind Medicine Australia\u2019s work. And that\u2019s really how we\u2019ve enabled a lot of this to happen. We just went in, we didn\u2019t let anything be our barrier. We just though, \u201cWell, anything\u2019s possible. We can do this. And if we get enough people behind us and we spend enough time, energy\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the end, yeah, we\u2019ve also donated a lot of money to this. Peter and I have done this pro bono for the last eight years, completely pro bono, because we just want to help alleviate suffering and want to see people get their lives back.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We want people to have meaningful lives. We want them to feel healthy. We want them to be able to see the sacred in everything. And that\u2019s one of the great gifts that these medicines give you, whether you\u2019re washing the dishes or you are looking at the beautiful tree outside or a beautiful sunset, it\u2019s starting to see the beauty in everything in this life. And if that\u2019s a gift we can give people, wow, well, why won\u2019t we do that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Couple of questions all over the map, is it true that you with your facilitator from the Netherlands were given psilocybin with Syrian rue or was there no Syrian rue?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> All right, why\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, it was Syrian Rue. Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Why did he decide to include that? My understanding, and I haven\u2019t looked this up in a very long time, is that Syrian rue contains\u2014could be multiple beta-carbolines, like harmine, harmaline, which are\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Peganum harmala, mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Right. So peganum harmala is the Syrian rue.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But it imparts when combined with psilocybin kind of an ayahuasca twist of lemon on top.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes, it does.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Because it\u2019s adding the monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Why did he choose your facilitator to approach it that way?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I think that was the protocol that he used. Anyway, it was his standard protocol. Now I think it\u2019s a great protocol for the right clients. I think for us it was the right protocol. Firstly, it\u2019s an MAOI inhibitor, as you\u2019ve just mentioned. So he has this protocol which he calls Psilohuasca. So it\u2019s a combination of psilocybin and ayahuasca. That\u2019s how he sort of describes it. Now, when I went in, if I\u2019d known that it was ayahuasca, I probably would\u2019ve freaked out and gone, \u201cOh, there\u2019s no way I\u2019m doing ayahuasca.\u201d But it was the way that it was done was actually it was like that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I think that because Peter and I had never had any drugs in our life at all, we were completely new to this, but we were also type A people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> You don\u2019t say.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Right. I was a bit of a control freak then. I\u2019m still one, but I\u2019m not as much one then now as I was then. I will say that. And that was one of the reasons I wanted to do this, was I wanted to let go of some of the control. Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> So I really wanted to see what that would be like. What would Tania be like without all of that holding on?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Good for you. Good for you.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> You know?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> A lot of type A people will not choose to release the white knuckling.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Right. So it was like this Syrian rue, it relaxed us, firstly. But then the goal, which I found out later, I didn\u2019t know this at the time, but that it was expanded the visuals and the whole experience between two to 10 times. So it amplified our experience and what we would\u2019ve seen, heard, everything, experienced by two to 10 times. And subsequently, I think that is accurate. I think it extended the experience. It created more visuals than what I had seen say without using peganum harmala subsequently.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the first two experiences Peter and I had both were with Syrian rue. And I thought it was an extraordinary way of relaxing us and then helping us to just let go of our bodies and just to be able to travel. And at one stage the guide said, \u201cOh, you guys are really having a lot of trouble stepping out of your bodies.\u201d I could hear him say that in the room.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> You\u2019re like, \u201cThanks, bud.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It was like your body\u2019s there fighting you.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Oh man. I\u2019m curious, what dose, do you recall how many grams of, I\u2019m assuming it\u2019s dried Psilocybe mushroom of some type?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes. With a kick of lemon juice, yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. The lemon, did he let it marinade in the lemon for a while? Did he grind it up and marinade it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Not so long.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t know how long he\u2019d marinated it for. I was too petrified to really watch that part.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How quickly did you feel the onset? That\u2019ll probably tell me how long it marinated.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It was probably within about\u2014I started feeling tingling through some of my feet and hands probably within about 30 minutes. My husband kept saying, \u201cThere\u2019s nothing happening.\u201d And then all of a sudden it was like, \u201cOh my God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Famous last words. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. I mean, he was on the floor on a mattress. I was on the bed. We were not talking to one another. That was part of the protocol. And it probably took about half an hour and I could feel like there was so much tingling. I called the guide over and I said, \u201cHey, I\u2019m really afraid. Can you hold my hand?\u201d Because I though, \u201cWhat\u2019s happening?\u201d I hadn\u2019t felt my body do these sorts of strange things before. And it was like I could feel myself sort of\u2014it was like I was filling up and I didn\u2019t quite know what that meant. And then all of a sudden I started to see the colors and the shapes and it was like this kaleidoscope that I was looking through and it was incredible.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I mean, I\u2019d be curious if this matches your experience because I do have some experience with psilocybin plus Syrian rue. Also, just a footnote for folks on the lemon.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> The lemon, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So my understanding, I\u2019m not a biochemist, but if you marinate the Psilocybe mushroom, especially if it\u2019s ground up, say a coffee grinder, in lemon that it basically pre-metabolizes it, breaks it down or converts it into psilocin. And your body is converting psilocybin into psilocin as the active metabolite to begin with. And in doing so, for me, it would typically take, in some cases, it really depends on a lot of factors, when did I last eat, et cetera, et cetera, but 45 minutes to an hour maybe for effects to really set in with eating mushrooms.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If they\u2019re ground and put in lemon, and it depends on the strain of mushrooms, some can be more obviously potent than others, but 10 to 15 minutes, I mean, I am off to the races, what normally would\u2019ve taken 60 to 90 minutes. Which is actually quite nice, because the waiting game can be the most torturous part for a lot of people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Similarly, with the Syrian rue, my experience is, let\u2019s just say if my workspace functional dose is 4.5 grams, let\u2019s just say, or 3.5 to four these days, let\u2019s just say, although I\u2019ve taken the foot off the gas a lot with this stuff. But if Syrian rue is involved, then all of a sudden 1.5 is plenty and you can use much less.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Which I think one advantage of that is that you\u2019re less likely to have a headache the next day. Some people at higher dose psilocybin can really get a crusher of a headache, depending on their individual pharmacology. So have you continued to work with the Syrian rue or have you moved to a different toolkit?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Sometimes, yeah. And I\u2019m sort of curious again to actually\u2014I have this hankering at the moment to perhaps go and have a session with Syrian rue again. I think that it\u2019s more powerful for me still, but subsequent to the second dose, so when we had the second dose with the guide\u2014and yeah, it was probably about probably 2.5\u20133 grams of dried mushroom that we were having to your earlier question. And I guess the next one we had after that was probably with a guide somewhere in the US who didn\u2019t use the Syrian. And for me, that was not as powerful.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It was still good. I was still traveling quite a lot. And I think Aldous Huxley famously said, \u201cOnce the doors of perception are open, you can never shut them again.\u201d And I really have found that to be the case. What I saw, I can never unsee what I experienced, I experienced, and it\u2019s always going to be there with me. And I consider that the greatest gift that I had that, and it enables me to get into other transcendental states with meditation and singing and other things much more quickly and easily as well. I can access those states more easily.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Would I prefer to do Syrian rue from time to time? Yes, I think so. It is a good thing. Some people find it a bit nauseating. So there are some people who might find that it can make them a bit nauseating. So I don\u2019t get a headache from psilocybin, generally speaking. In fact, a lot of people I know use psilocybin to microdose to remove their cluster headaches and their migraines. So it\u2019s interesting that you said about the headache. So everyone\u2019s different of course.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, yeah, I think this is a Paracelsus, the dose makes the poison, situation in the sense that microdosing, certainly there\u2019s research being done with LSD, or analogs of LSD, looking at cluster headaches very specifically.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, correct.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And a lot of the data I think are compelling on the\u2014when I\u2019m talking about headaches, generally what I\u2019m talking about is someone who is relatively naive to psilocybin, who is\u2014and this is most people in the beginning innings, who are subconsciously or consciously trying to remain in control. And so they have three grams. They also don\u2019t know what to expect. So when the facilitator shuffles over and puts a hand on the shoulder and says, \u201cTania, how are you feeling? Are you feeling anything?\u201d You\u2019re like, \u201cI have no fucking idea.\u201d That\u2019s what 99% are going to be like.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m feeling anything. I have no idea if this is the right thing or if I\u2019m just making things up. Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, I know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And then depending also on how seasoned the facilitator is, but they\u2019ll say, \u201cWell, if you\u2019re going to boost, this is the time to boost.\u201d And again, 99% of newbies are going to be like, \u201cI have no idea if I should boost.\u201d But if they\u2019re not clearly feeling something and they imagine it\u2019s supposed to be this explosive 17th dimension experience, they\u2019re like, \u201cSure, I\u2019ll have more.\u201d So they have three, then they have six, and then I\u2019ve seen people have nine, and then some people go 12. In a case like that, the likelihood of having headache is non-zero.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, I know. I mean\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> When you start getting up into the brute force\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Oh no, definitely.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014flood doses, which it happens a lot. I mean, moms also frequently need higher doses than some folks because they\u2019re so used to taking care of everybody else. And also sometimes a good reason for people to do sessions separately as opposed to as a couple.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> If someone is a primary caretaker, sometimes they can be so preoccupied that they don\u2019t respond to what is already a saturating dose.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> That\u2019s true. But there is also something very much to be said for doing this in groups.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, I agree with that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> And we\u2019ve seen that. Especially with just the experience, but also then the integration, just sitting in circle together, in sacred circles, and sharing these experiences with others, it\u2019s just\u2014you can\u2019t bottle it. I mean, everyone\u2019s experience is so different and it really helps you to understand just how different we really are. But then we\u2019re getting the same sort of messages coming back.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So even though the material is so different that we\u2019re seeing and hearing and feeling, but then our insights coming back can be very similar. And it\u2019s amazing how many people, for example, that I\u2019ve met who\u2019ve literally stone-cold stopped alcohol after having psilocybin experiences and never had it again.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Remarkable.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> The group experience, I mean, the group dynamic I think is where a lot of gold is. And I think it was either 2014 or 15 where I funded a study at UCSF in Northern California looking at long-term demoralization, effectively a variant of depression, in AIDS survivors. And the reason that I funded that study, I mean, there are a number of reasons that I helped fund it, and I\u2019m not sure if I funded the entire thing or part of it, that\u2019s beside the point. The point is that the reason it most grabbed my interest is it was the first time I had seen group integration in the study design.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I could foresee, or I would bet at least at that point, I still bet, that not only will it be much more cost-effective to deliver some of these medications in group environments\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014because you\u2019re splitting the cost of one or two therapists\/babysitters\/nurses across multiple people, four, six, whatever the number might be. I actually think, and this is certainly borne out in the data from a number of the better Ibogaine clinics, the outcomes are better. It\u2019s not just that the cost is lower, the outcomes are better. And certainly I think the experience is much more nuanced and deeper for the participants. So I do think there\u2019s a lot there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Let me come back to MMA, and every time I say it, I think of mixed martial arts, but I know it\u2019s not mixed martial arts.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Oh, Magic Mushrooms Australia. That was sort of the secret name behind the real name.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, got it. Okay. Right. So Mind Medicine Australia, what are some of the mistakes that you made? Because if someone\u2019s listening to this and they\u2019re like, \u201cWe want to take a playbook. We want to try this in Croatia. We want to try this in Japan. We want to try this in\u2014\u201d fill in the blank, what are some of the cautionary notes or the things on the do not repeat list where you\u2019re like, \u201cYou know what? If I were to do this all over again, I would probably not do X, or I would do Y a little differently.\u201d What are things that come to mind for you?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> There\u2019s so many things really. It was really challenging. I mean, though my husband have set up so many charities, and very successfully, this was very difficult. Because it\u2019s a very nuanced area, the whole area of mental health care. There\u2019s a lot of people that have a lot of views and there\u2019s a lot of vested interests in the space that we hadn\u2019t fully appreciated. So there was vested interest from researchers that we were not aware of, where researchers were wanting to just keep researching for many, many more years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We had people literally confront us and we had a lot of conflict with researchers saying, \u201cWell, we need to research for another five or 10 or more years.\u201d And we\u2019re arguing, but there\u2019s patients out there who are going to take their own lives if they don\u2019t get other solutions for their mental health conditions. So there was that sort of thing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Can you say more about that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> When you say vested interest, did they feel, because they are researchers and in the business of conducting science, did they simply feel that the burden of proof had not been addressed, therefore we need more data? Or was it, \u201cHey, we are receiving funding from,\u201d I don\u2019t know the equivalent of the NIH is in Australia, \u201cbut we want to continue to receive funding to research these things. Therefore, the longer the runway we have, the more my job security is assured and therefore\u2014\u201d I mean, when you say vested interest, what do you mean?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. That was the main reason. I mean, that was.<\/p>\n<p>And look, we understand, we\u2019ve supported a lot of\u2014we\u2019ve actually invested ourselves, as we know you have, in trials that are for innovative new uses for psilocybin, for example. So we\u2019ve just, for example, part funded a trial that was for eating disorders and another one I think for obsessive compulsive disorder and other things like that. And we very much believe in supporting new research, novel research, but we were not fans of replicating trials that had already been undertaken at least five to 10 or more times in other markets overseas. For example, end of life anxiety and stress.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Or there was a particular researcher who did a trial with MDMA just for four patients and it took, I don\u2019t know, more than five years to complete. Things like that. We just though, \u201cWell, that\u2019s statistically insignificant.\u201d And one of those researchers was one of the people that really attacked us really strongly. It was very, very vicious and personal. And because Peter and I were not clinicians, that was another reason that people though, \u201cWell, who are these people? How dare they come into our space as nonmedical people and start thinking that they could actually change the regulations and how dare they think that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There was a lot of that pushing back like, \u201cGo back into your box, please. You don\u2019t belong here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So mistakes, though. Mistakes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, I mean, maybe that was a mistake.<\/p>\n<p>But we had a lot of clinicians around us so that we were also constantly having clinicians presenting with us on webinars and things like that. And we did that deliberately because we didn\u2019t want people to say, \u201cWell, they don\u2019t know what they\u2019re talking about.\u201d And so that we had clinicians always appearing with us when we\u2019re presenting, especially if we\u2019re presenting to clinicians, governments and things like that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think other mistakes we made was that we had a lot of people wanting to work for us who had lived experience of mental illness. And look, we all carry trauma and I\u2019m no stranger to trauma. I\u2019m the daughter and granddaughter of Holocaust survivors. And we all are carrying some kind of trauma, whether it\u2019s our own, our families, our lineage collective trauma, we\u2019re carrying that. But we were attracting a lot of people to work with us who didn\u2019t fully disclose all their conditions upfront. And so all of a sudden there might be somebody who was taking alcohol or would turn up to work in a completely drunk state. And this was something we\u2019d never seen before in our other charities. And I think people were coming to us \u2019cause they wanted to heal their condition.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And to begin with, we wanted to be as inclusive as possible with the people we had working with us. And we still believe in that, but we did have some very difficult experiences early on where I guess we were attracting people who still needed to do more work on themselves rather than working in a high-powered, high stress environment. And this is a high-powered.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When you\u2019re trying to change the law, you need people around you that are very strong and who are resilient because we got knocked down over and over. So I would say you just have to be so resilient and you can\u2019t let it all affect you. And even the personal attacks, I found them very hurtful and I\u2019m quite a sensitive person. And there were times where I was literally lying on the carpet crying because it was just too personal. It was just too much.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I thought I was tough and had a thick skin before this, enough of a thick skin, but I didn\u2019t. So I had to bring in all the resilience of my forefathers, and my maternal grandmother who\u2019d fled the Holocaust and all of that started to become very useful when this was all going on. You can sort of see that anyone who\u2019s a pioneer who\u2019s trying to drive change is going to be attacked. And I hadn\u2019t really appreciated that fully before.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Does anything else come to mind? So I will underscore what you just said. Very common in the, broadly speaking, psychedelic space, which is incredibly understandable, but it is the last or viewed as the last hope for a lot of people for whom every other intervention has failed. Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And for that reason, a lot of people who want to help are in fact, and this is again understandable, interested in trying to mitigate some of their own suffering, but are not in a position where they can sustain the type of intensity or stress or volatility in some of the work that is being done. It\u2019s just not the right timing for them, not the right circumstance.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I would also say that for those who haven\u2019t been exposed to the science, it\u2019s another reason why the effect sizes of these drugs on even a small cohort, say 12 people, 15, whatever it might be, when you see these dramatic reductions in HAM-D or whatever assessment might be used for depression or PTSD, what makes it all the more mind-boggling is when you consider how long people have had these diagnoses and how resistant they have been to, in some cases, dozens of interventions.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And when you look at some of this data, I think it was the phase II data from MAPS looking at complex PTSD, but the average, and again, I might be misspeaking, but I\u2019m directionally right. The average length of diagnosis of severe complex PTSD was something like 16 years, 17 years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes. Correct.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And then you see for a subset of that group complete remission.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Correct.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> After two or three sessions, it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> 68%.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Which also, and I\u2019m pulling from memory, so this is a dangerous business. But when I did the MAPS. I kind of audited. I didn\u2019t do it for any type of practice myself, but I sat in on the MAPS international therapist training in Israel, which was the first time actually that any, to my knowledge, any federal government had paid for or supported at least, financially supported this type of training. And my recollection is, this was quite a few years ago, that after the last administered medicine, the remission rate was something like 54 and then six months later it climbed to 68.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes. Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It went up, and again, we\u2019re painting with kind of a rough brush here, maybe it was 65%, who knows? But the point is that people who no longer met the clinical diagnosis of PTSD, they went from blind shut can\u2019t work a job to asymptomatic, grew over time. It did not go up.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s remarkable. That is a remarkable feature. Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It\u2019s just crazy to think about. The durability is so wild. And also it\u2019s not a panacea, to your point. It\u2019s like if you go back into the same circumstances with the same temptations and the same problems and the same abuse or the same fill in the blank, it\u2019s not a magic bullet. And I really agree, I\u2019m taking us a little, sorry, off on a tangent, but with say Gul Dolen, who\u2019s now at UC Berkeley, used to be at Hopkins, and I\u2019m paraphrasing, she can certainly speak for herself. I\u2019ve had her on my podcast, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> We did too, yeah\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014I believe these psychedelics open a critical\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Critical window\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014period, a critical window within which you can change longstanding beliefs and behaviors. So I think\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> That\u2019s right\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014the integration, and I\u2019m working on a bunch of stuff related to this right now actually outside of psychedelics, but when you induce neuroplasticity, so suddenly you\u2019ve warmed up the clay and you can shape it in a new way.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> The question is how do you do that? And it becomes a lot of the questions relate to behavioral change. How do you set up\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> They do\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014the systems? How do you set up the nudges? How do you create the incentives? How do you, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Because it\u2019s not a foregone conclusion that you take these things and you turn out better. It just isn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, no, it\u2019s not. Though it is, to your point about the increased remissions, when I started presenting on this and I saw that was that New York, I think it was New York Uni or Johns Hopkins trial that showed these increasing remissions over time, that is not something that would ever happen with an antidepressant. Usually what happens with an antidepressant is you get an original improvement perhaps then it plateaus. Then the doctor says, \u201cWell, we might have to try different antidepressant or increase the dose.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Whereas in this case you have those two or three doses maximum, then you\u2019re having the psychotherapy and your remission is increasing if you engage well with the integration sessions. And that means making those changes in your life that you\u2019ve just talked about that are really important, whether that means exercise, nutrition, connecting with people who are important for you to connect with that are not going to bring you back into the old patterns that you were in before. All sorts of stuff about community and social connection I think is really important at that stage as well.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, yeah, for sure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What do you think contributed to the TGA agreeing to the offer to have David Nutt speak to their employees? Why would they say us? \u2018Cause sitting here in the US, if I were just to ring up the 800 number, the FDA and be like, \u201cYou know what? I got a pitch for you,\u201d I don\u2019t think it would go anywhere. Now, sure, I wouldn\u2019t call the 800 number, but even still, it would not be easy for me to get a yes to create a webinar.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Look, I had the mobile number of the head of the TGA. I was lucky to have that. Somehow I got that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Sure he or she loved that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think he loved me having his number. I didn\u2019t bug him too much, but if things started to get roadblocked and we could see they were getting roadblocked, we might give him a call and say, \u201cWhat\u2019s going on here now?\u201d Or there was all sorts of governance things that would happen. It was really important, for example, that they publish all the submissions, but it took them a while to do so.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">At the moment, by the way, we have a new submission in. You can see our submission for end of life stress and anxiety with psilocybin. We\u2019re trying to extend the psilocybin to end of life stress and anxiety because virtual assisted dying is legal in Australia. So if people can do that, then why can\u2019t they find peace through psilocybin in Australia? So that\u2019s part of our argument. You can see our argument on the TGA page. And in fact, on our website on Mind Medicine Australia, you can see all our submissions for these medicines to the TGA.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But I think really we were speaking to him, it was getting to the really pointy end of the final, really probably what would\u2019ve been the final chance to get there. And we\u2019d put in the opposing submission to the interim decision. So the interim decision said no. We\u2019d put it in. We asked him if we could present that we were bringing David Nutt to Australia, so he said, \u201cYeah.\u201d And then as I said, 10 to 15 people he thought would turn up and then it was 140.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> 140.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> And not a dry eye in the room after Vanessa spoke. Literally everyone was in tears. I think it was really her. I mean, David was brilliant. Of course he was brilliant, but I think it was her. I think it was the fact that people could see a real life example. Well, this is what\u2019s going to happen. If we keep denying people access to these treatments, then we could have many more Francos occur. And of course, there\u2019s many people who are taking their own lives because they\u2019ve given up hope. And we want to give people hope and we want to give them their lives back. That\u2019s the most important thing in the world we could have ever achieved.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> What are some of the biggest challenges still\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Now?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> In current day or that you foresee in the next year or two? I just don\u2019t know what the picture currently looks like.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So it seems like there\u2019s a grand kind of real world experiment afoot in Australia, which is like, okay, we\u2019ve allowed these authorized psychiatrists and medical professionals to prescribe and supervise sessions with MDMA and psilocybin. Is the jury still out in the sense that the government\u2019s like, \u201cAfter X period of time, we\u2019re going to review all this data and determine whether we want to continue this or not\u201d? Or is that not the case? Is it open-ended?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I mean, I believe it\u2019s open-ended. So we do still keep having an ongoing dialogue with the TGA. So we write periodically to the TGA about some of the bureaucratic roadblocks. So there are some bureaucratic roadblocks. For example, for quite a while until a few months ago, there was a rule in place that only clinical psychologists could be the lead therapist. So there\u2019s two therapists that usually sit in the dosing with a patient. Well, there was this criteria that it could only be a clinical psychologist.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So we then put in a letter saying all the reasons why it shouldn\u2019t just be a clinical psychologist, why it should be other psychologists, but also other practitioners. And so then that did get widened. And every time there\u2019s a roadblock, we write letters to the TGA showing the evidence and research why that should not be the case. And if necessary, we\u2019ll have a call and we\u2019ll keep just trying to open the door, not to open it fully. That\u2019s not our goal at all.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We believe that these treatments should be done in very careful ways because some of the patients going in for these treatments, in fact, the majority going in for these treatments above ground in clinical environments are very sick and they need to be very well cared for. And so they need to have proper screening. They need to have the top most well-trained clinicians sitting with them, and they need to have extremely good integration processes and tools to go back into their lives and to get real remissions.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But we don\u2019t believe that there should be overly onerous constraints. So now we\u2019ve also got a situation in Australia where all of the clinics are videoing the sessions. So there could be an argument in the future that says that one clinician with a patient, if there\u2019s a video there as well, might be sufficient.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There\u2019s also group therapy that we\u2019re looking at and we\u2019ve already started to look, and I think some authorized prescribers might have put in protocols that might have group integration in their protocol. So we are very supportive of that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Other roadblocks, of course, is the cost. So there\u2019s still a lot of patients who can\u2019t afford the upfront costs, so we need to let them know about our patient support fund. We need to let them know that Medibank is providing their gold members who qualify for these treatments with pretty much the full cost of the treatment, which is really significant.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How much is the cost off the rack at the moment?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, so at our clinic, so we\u2019ve started a clinic too with another listed company called Incannex, and our clinic is called Mind Medicine Australia.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Listed publicly traded company?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. So we as a charity have a half share in this clinic with a publicly traded company and it\u2019s called Mind Medicine Australia Clinic, and it\u2019s in Abbotsford, a suburb of Melbourne. And we\u2019re using that as a real test case to see how to build a best practice clinic. So what do we need to do? How much supervision needs to be supplied? We also use it as a wonderful resource where some of our clinicians that we\u2019ve graduated through our training course can go and gain supervision and experience as well as in the other 20 clinics around Australia. So it\u2019s like we\u2019re developing this sort of clinic in a box protocol, I guess.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How much does that cost per person depending on the compound maybe?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> So it starts at about\u2014so we actually at our clinic only start with people at one dose. So if a person decides after one dose that it\u2019s really not for them, they can withdraw because in speaking with our authorized prescribers, they preferred that protocol and we don\u2019t want to force people through it if they really don\u2019t want to do it and money is an issue. So it starts at about 8,000 Australian dollars, which is about 5,000, let\u2019s say US dollars for one treatment, including the screening. Then the next one, yeah, probably up to about 15,000 US dollars for three doses and integration.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And that\u2019s the same for either compound?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, I think MDMA might be slightly more because it may be up to three doses where psilocybin\u2019s up to two, and that includes the three to four months of integration following the medicine treatments as well. So it\u2019s about a three to four month course that is costing maybe up to about 25,000 Australian dollars, about say 15,000 US dollars, something like that. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It\u2019s expensive, but it\u2019s not insane. I know it\u2019s out of reach of a lot of people, but if people view it, if they think of it as a pill, I\u2019m taking one pill and it costs me $5,000 and it\u2019s like, okay, their reference point is walking into a pharmacy, let\u2019s just say here in the US, they have their insurance and the copay is 5 bucks or 10 bucks and they get their 30-day supply. So they\u2019re like, \u201cWait a minute, how is it possible?\u201d But when you realize, if it were to be framed, I\u2019m not saying this is the way to frame it, but it\u2019s like this is three to four months of very well-designed therapy. And by the way, you also happen to get a few powerful drugs along the way.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> You\u2019re like, \u201cYeah, okay, great.\u201d But when they think of the drug first, they\u2019re anchored to a reference they understand, which is probably some very low cost prescription that they get 90 days at a time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. No. Well, I mean, it is really important to say that the majority of that cost is therapeutic time. The medicine, so we\u2019ve enabled the medicines to come into Australia at the cheapest possible price. The medicine is a tiny little percentage of the cost that I\u2019ve just mentioned. It\u2019s all about therapeutic time. And because there\u2019s two therapists involved for some periods of that time, that\u2019s even more, which is why one of the reasons that we, and not only we, others around the world also say, \u201cWell, if there\u2019s a video in the room, does it always have to be two therapists? I mean, but it is a long treatment time as we know, so a dosing session can take five to six hours, so maybe there needs to be some overlap there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Is there anything in process or have you guys thought about methylone? Transcend Therapeutics was recently acquired. I don\u2019t know what the parent company is now planning with methylone, but methylone is, for lack of a better descriptor, it\u2019s like the softer, gentler cousin of MDMA who just comes in for a quick hello as opposed to sitting down for dinner, right? It\u2019s like a\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I love that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> 45 to 60 minute hello as opposed to four to six hours. And as you mentioned, it\u2019s like the cost of\u2014well, my opinion, the cost of synthesizing and purchasing these things should not be exorbitantly high.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It\u2019s not.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> There are certain\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It\u2019s not at all.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And depending on where you are in the world, there are some companies that would like to make that as expensive as possible, but that\u2019s a whole separate conversation.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But putting that aside, putting pharma shenanigans to the side, the pills shouldn\u2019t be expensive, the materials.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Not at all.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But the therapist time is expensive.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Very.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So if you could look at comparing, say, methylone and its effects, which have been quite impressive looking at non-psychotherapy coupled dosing, because MAPS, Lykos at the time, got itself into all sorts of tangles because the FDA on our side does not know how to think about standardizing or regulating psychotherapy. So if the drug is inextricably tied to psychotherapy, the FDA is kind of on some level forced to respond with, \u201cWe don\u2019t know how to deal with this, so we\u2019re going to say no.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I mean, there\u2019s much more story\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Because that\u2019s not their expertise. They\u2019re a medicine scheduling bureau.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Right. So then Transcend said, \u201cWell, let\u2019s just look at what happens with the dosing of the medication.\u201d And even if you had though a therapist in the room, which is not a bad idea, then you have something that is possible within a 60 minute, or let\u2019s just call it 60 to 120 minute window, which should ostensibly lower the cost really substantially. And I know this probably wouldn\u2019t convince the TGA, but my perspective too is like, look, you\u2019re not tripping your balls off when you\u2019re on methylone or MDMA, frankly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Not at all.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Most people could have a conversation. They\u2019re probably not going to want to work on a computer, but there\u2019s not as much distortion as you would experience on something like psilocybin. So when you have, let\u2019s just say, six people in a room plus one therapist or two therapists, you also, for each patient, have five other witnesses.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yes, they\u2019re in an altered state, but it\u2019s not like they\u2019re seeing goblins doing jumping jacks all over the room. It\u2019s not that kind of perceptual distortion.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m all for that, Tim. So one of the things that I think I recently mentioned to you that I went to Dave Asprey\u2019s BEYOND Event in Austin, Texas, and there happened to be a stand there for Kanna. And I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re familiar with Kanna\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Kanna, African, I believe.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s an African medicine. It\u2019s not cannabis, but it\u2019s like an African leaf or something.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> With a K.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Anyway, and I came across through a friend of mine who was there, a substance called Kanna Lift, I think it\u2019s called Lift, and it\u2019s like MDMA, but it\u2019s shorter lasting. It only lasts a couple of hours, maybe 90 minutes to two hours. And I just thought actually, and it\u2019s natural as well, which I really like. I thought to myself, \u201cWow, this is really good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I agree with you. I mean, obviously ketamine is being used a lot and people go in and have a ketamine session, certainly in the US. It\u2019s not as common in Australia, but a lot of therapists in the US are using ketamine for depression. But the problem about ketamine is that it needs to be used over and over in most cases.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Even bigger problems. It has very, very high addiction potential.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I\u2019ve seen a lot of lives to unravel because of ketamine. It has its place. If there\u2019s acute suicidality, I do think that IV or intramuscular ketamine has a place, but it is very easy to abuse. Very, very easy to abuse.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. The Kanna I\u2019ll check out. I took a look at it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Check it out.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Quite a few years ago.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I\u2019ll send you a link.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> The synthetic all natural thing is an interesting conversation, just because I would say that I am interested in all natural to the extent that you might be throwing some of the baby out with the bath water when you move to say ibogaine from Iboga. And I certainly know a number of researchers and certainly plenty of practitioners who would take that side of things.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Simultaneously, part of the reason scientists and pharma like to isolate is because you have, in some instances, a less muddied picture of things. You have fewer variables. But in the US, for instance, I don\u2019t know what the status is in Australia, Kratom or Kratom, depending on who you ask, was viewed as this savior of the people who want to get off of opioids and prescription drugs. But mitragynine or mitragynine, which is found in Kratom, lo and behold, if you use it chronically, can put you into a dependent state where you need rehab to get off of Kratom.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Crazy, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Right. And I know people who run rehabilitation clinics and so on. And if there were, maybe there is a chart, I don\u2019t know where you would find it, but anecdotally talking to people who run these type of clinics or people who run clinics offering different services, part of which is detoxing from various types of drug dependencies, Kratom is up and to the right. It\u2019s like AI stocks. They\u2019re matched.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I would tell people all natural can be very powerful and it also can be, in some cases, poorly understood because there aren\u2019t as many financial incentives if there isn\u2019t something that can be patented. We get into very slippery territory here.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But I would also say in the case of ketamine, I\u2019m not a doctor, I\u2019m not giving medical advice, but if you look at, say, Johnson &amp; Johnson and Spravato, sure, it\u2019s esketamine, but they\u2019ve created a maintenance model with this drug. But I would say if you suffer from a serious diagnosed mental illness, then obviously follow the advice of your doctor. But if you are considering different options and you happen to be in the US and one of the few legal options available is ketamine, I would encourage with the input of your doctor to look at less chronic use as an option, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Definitely.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And you\u2019ve got Phil Wolfson and others who have certainly written a lot about this. You have John Krystal at Yale has looked also at IV and intramuscular use of ketamine where you may just need a few rounds. You may just need one round.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Or you might just need to have psilocybin therapy instead.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, there\u2019s that too. Yeah, we have some legal checks.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Oh no, I get that at the moment, but yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, at the moment, for sure. I mean, look, ketamine would not be in my top five list.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Nor mine.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> However, there are two huge caveats there. Look, it is one of, I believe it\u2019s still on the World Health Organization\u2019s most essential medicines list. This is a very useful drug as an anesthetic. I mean, it\u2019s a dissociative anesthetic. So for instance, if you have any history of using alcohol, even to take the edge off, certainly if you have alcoholism or alcoholism in your family, ketamine is the dissociative turning off of feelings you don\u2019t want that you get from alcohol times 100. Ketamine, that is part of the reason why it can be so addictive. However, if you have chronic pain, this is I know not within the sphere of mental health, but for certain types of chronic pain, ketamine is incredible in terms of very few rounds with very durable benefits.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And in fact, I really dislike the ketamine in general. Subjectively, personally, it\u2019s not really my thing. But I was getting so many questions about ketamine, this is 10 years ago, and I decided, \u201cWell, look, I\u2019m going to follow basically the Yelp protocol and I\u2019ll get the, whatever it is, 0.5 milligrams per kilogram,\u201d or whatever the magic doses that everybody took as gospel, even though it\u2019s an informed guess on the part of John Krystal\u2019s colleagues, whatever became the dogma. I was like,\u201d All right, I\u2019ll do at least one, probably two, two week sequences of infusions, so at least I can speak firsthand to the subjective effects and the experience, the phenomenology of the experience. I\u2019ll be able to answer some questions about it.\u201d And went in and the clinicians were good, this was in Austin, and you have to be careful, there are a lot of fly-by-night operations, but I did my homework, I kind of know how to vet this stuff. And the clinicians were so baffled by me because I went in and I had no anxiety, no depression. And each time I went in, which was multiple times a week, they would ask me to fill out this assessment to determine my current state, how they would score me for anxiety and depression. And I just kept getting more anxious, not really depressed, but more and more anxious and maybe mildly more depressed. And the reason was, I had a really, really busy two weeks. So it\u2019s like I\u2019m preparing for a podcast with LeBron James, but then I have ketamine and then I forget my backpack and my short-term memory\u2019s fucked and I\u2019m misplacing all this shit and then have constipation, so it\u2019s hard to sleep and I\u2019m like, \u201cThis stuff is terrible.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So every time I went in, I was getting more anxious and they were like, \u201cThis is very confusing for us. We really don\u2019t know how to make any sense of this.\u201d And I got to the end of it and I was like, \u201cGod, that stuff is weird and it is not for me.\u201d I was just like, \u201cLook, I can handle it.\u201d I pushed it with a lot of clinical supervision. The IV allows you to do some very interesting things that you can\u2019t do with\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014with intramuscular. Intramuscular, you hit the golf ball and the golf ball\u2019s hit and you\u2019re gone. But with the IV, you can dial it up and down and experiment with things like interacting with a therapist at different dosages.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Have you heard about IVD 5-MeO?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I know quite a bit about IV and NDMT where they extend it out to about one hour. There\u2019s been some research at Imperial College London. Would I do it? I think I\u2019d be open to it. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s automatically a free lunch. I mean, that\u2019s going to be pretty intense.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But I\u2019d be open to it.<\/p>\n<p>On the ketamine side though, the reason I brought up this whole story, preparing for podcasts and getting anxious and being kind of annoyed that I had to go in and do this thing because I\u2019d committed to this experiment is I finished my first series of infusions and I was like, \u201cAll right, never doing that again. That was a total waste of time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then I noticed about a week later that I had this really horrible pain in the middle of my thoracic musculature in my mid-back. And this had been from a horrible injury 15 years ago, something like that, where I basically almost tore my lat off my back, really bad accident. And it had plagued me ever since. And I would sit there and I\u2019d be like, \u201cOh, oh, oh.\u201d And sometimes I couldn\u2019t turn, sometimes I couldn\u2019t cough, sometimes it would hurt to breathe deeply. I mean, it was really this chronic plaguing injury. And after I had that, whatever it was, week or two weeks of infusions, that went away, never came back.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And that is one of the indications for ketamine is certain types of chronic pain. And I was like, \u201cHoly shit, amazing.\u201d I was like, \u201cOkay, there\u2019s a place for it. That was worth it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I really didn\u2019t like that experience, but it was worth it. And I do know multiple people who were like, \u201cI\u2019m going to blow my head off tomorrow.\u201d And they go in and they have an infusion or intramuscular injection, and at the end of the session they\u2019re like, \u201cI don\u2019t know what I was so upset about.\u201d I mean, they\u2019re able to look at it in a dispassionate, more dissociated, obviously, capacity. They\u2019re almost an observer of their own state and the stories they were telling themselves. So for that also, I think it\u2019s useful. But, yeah, personally, it wouldn\u2019t be on my top five.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No, no. Well, it\u2019s not being used much in Australia, but I feel there\u2019s going to be huge shifts globally over the next few months and that there\u2019s going to be psilocybin probably through Compass Pathways and Usona will be registered. I think, is it Resilience? What\u2019s the name of MAPS now? I can\u2019t remember now.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> They keep changing names. I think it\u2019s Resilient.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Resilient. I think that\u2019s going to come through as well, especially given that the president\u2019s given that executive order. I think that potentially by mid next year, who knows what\u2019s going to be registered and the whole landscape\u2019s probably going to change and a lot more countries hopefully are going to be following Australia and hopefully Australia there\u2019ll be less bureaucracy and we can have way more people being treated.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. A lot of people may not realize that Australia is a very fascinating landscape when it comes to conducting certain types of science. And globally, a lot of clinical trials from companies around the world have gone to Australia and China. Those are the two places you want to do it. That\u2019s fun for people to check out if they weren\u2019t aware. There is a global market for conducting clinical trials and Australia is one of the best places.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I wanted to come back to advice for advocates in other countries and things you might do differently. And you were mentioning that you\u2019re very persistent, which you are, you and your husband. And so here\u2019s another quote from, this is abc.net.au, and I think you\u2019ll get a good chuckle out of this. All right. Here\u2019s the quote. \u201cI actually had to on several occasions say to staff, \u2018Look, I know they\u2019re driving you crazy. Put their approaches in the way they work to one side. Think about the medical criteria and the scientific criteria and the regulatory issues only.\u2019 And I also counseled Mind Medicine at some stages that they were perhaps working against their own case by frankly being so aggressive. I lost count of the number of emails that would\u2019ve sent staff here.\u201d I think this is Professor Skerritt\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014told Background Briefing that he did provide MMA with the names and public phone numbers of the chief health officers in each state.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> He did.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Hilarious. The committee of experts and state regulators that advised TGA were similarly displeased by MMA\u2019s outreach according to a TGA, et cetera. So you\u2019re a force of nature. You guys have accomplished some amazing things. Were there any cases of pushing too hard? Because there are cases when people push with me. If they hit me from 17 different directions, I\u2019m like, \u201cDon\u2019t like it. Too brute force.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And I\u2019m like, \u201cBlacklist. I won\u2019t engage.\u201d Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Which is not to say that you should have done anything differently, but I am curious, are there cases where you\u2019re like, \u201cI should have waited an extra week. I should have approached that slightly differently.\u201d? How do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I think in this case, I mean, certainly I know that me personally can be too pushy at times and I\u2019ve had to really scale that back. And one of the things that the medicine has taught me is to just be more accepting, and I have become more accepting. So if a door or something doesn\u2019t seem as open as I first thought it was, or if it really feels really shut, I just don\u2019t go back and knock on the door as much anymore. And I just go, \u201cOkay, there\u2019s other opportunities. I\u2019ll go to them instead and I\u2019m going to go for the lower hanging fruit.\u201d So that\u2019s just me personally nowadays. I\u2019m much less driven about that than I was, and I think it\u2019s better.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But in terms of this particular campaign, I don\u2019t really think that anything less would\u2019ve been enough. And I feel that we had to keep pushing. And even my husband, who\u2019s less pushy than me, he\u2019s English, I\u2019m Jewish, I\u2019ve got a lot of chutzpah. I was brought up with a grandmother who invented the first foldable umbrella. She was a woman in the 1920s doing stuff that was way ahead of her time. But even he says that we had to do what we had to do. We had to just keep pushing and moving forwards. And we did have to knock on every door and we had to use every bit of the networks that we developed over decades to achieve what we achieved. But it was all done because of the data and science. It wasn\u2019t done because we pulled some favor. That was not the case at all.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And we all have this in our lives. We all have people in our lives who are suffering immensely and we owe it to them to push for the most safe and effective options available. And a lot of safe and effective medical options are not available. They\u2019re being withheld from the public. And this is only one example of that. And so we all have to push, as I say, we all have to become our own chief medical officers. We have to work out what\u2019s going to work for us, what\u2019s going to make us whole and healed so that we can live our best lives possible. And for me, that\u2019s the reason why I\u2019m here. I saw an article by you, I read it, I immediately felt inspired, and that has led to everything else that we\u2019ve created. So we blame you entirely for all of this and all the flack that we coughed. But I can say this now because to see the\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Part of the journey.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It\u2019s just extraordinary. And we receive these letters now where people are just like, \u201cYou gave us our lives back.\u201d We\u2019ve given people their lives back, Tim. And that\u2019s something that you should be so proud of because if it were not for you, I wouldn\u2019t have even known about this. Certainly not at that time. I would\u2019ve probably discovered it at some point, but there\u2019s always a thing about timing and that was really important timing. And we all have to just, if we really believe that something has to be done, then we just have to go for it and we can\u2019t let anything stop us. I\u2019ve told you the story in my TED Talk, how singing together changes the brain. I was told as a 14-year-old girl never to bother having singing lessons by my best friend, I talk about in my TED Talk, and one of the great things I learned was to never let anyone snatch your dreams away. And you can\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It\u2019s too important.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Thank you for saying that, everything you just said. And man, we are here for such a short time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> You got to get after it or not, but you got to do your thing, I suppose. Tania, so nice to spend time with you. Thank you for making the time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> My pleasure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Where would you like people to find you and Mind Medicine Australia? And do you have any asks of the audience? Is there anything you\u2019re trying to accomplish at the moment where maybe there\u2019s someone listening who may actually be able help or hold the keys to something?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Well, I have a couple of asks. So one of them is that we have our patient support fund and we\u2019re a registered charity. So all donations to us, depending on what tax vehicle you\u2019re giving through, can be tax-deductible. So we have full deductible gift recipient status, certainly in Australia. We also have people from overseas who donate to us regularly. And our goal is to raise, at the moment, $2.5 million so that we can really enable a lot more patients to have access to these treatments who otherwise couldn\u2019t afford the upfront costs. So we\u2019re talking here about helping support veterans, first responders, single moms, people who demonstrably can\u2019t afford the upfront costs of these treatments. That\u2019s my first ask.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Would people find, if they\u2019re interested, in considering that\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yep. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014is that Mindmedicineaustralia.org.au? Is that the place to go or\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes. Yeah. Mindmedicineaustralia.org.au. And then the second thing is if you\u2019re a clinician or therapist out there and you really would like to work in this field and you want to learn from the world\u2019s best, well, we have the most extraordinary global faculty that is teaching our Certificate in Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy. So people like Bessel van der Kolk, Gabor Mat\u00e9, who I know is a great friend of yours, Tim, and mine as well, people like Bill Richards and David Nutt and Rick Doblin and all those people are on our faculty and Jim Wolfson, lots of people that you know and Wade Davis. So these people you can study with through our world-leading Certificate in Psychedelic-Assisted Therapies.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And our next intakes are in February and July of 2027. Our current intake\u2019s full. All our intakes get booked out, but we really welcome you and we have people coming from all over the world to study with us. So we\u2019ve got people from Switzerland, Europe, the US, Canada, even from the United Arab Emirates and Asia now. We feel these huge markets potentially opening up in Asia and the UAE. And so we\u2019re seeing quite a few clinicians coming into our training from those regions. And just look us up. We\u2019ve got an amazing website. It\u2019s an amazing learn section. Everything you could ever want to learn about psychedelic-assisted therapies is on our website.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tim, I\u2019ve got an ask for you, but you don\u2019t have to say, \u201cYes,\u201d and that is we\u2019d love you to join our advisory panel, but we can talk about that offline. And we also have an extraordinary webinar series and it\u2019s free. And the next one\u2019s on eating disorders. We just had Dr. Peter Levine, and before that we had Dr. Gabor Mat\u00e9.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Is that Peter Levine <em>Waking the Tiger<\/em> Peter Levine?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, that one. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah. And later in the year we\u2019ve got Bessel van der Kolk, and I think we\u2019ve got a Dick Schwartz one coming up as well. So we have this extraordinary faculty. We have extraordinary people working with us and just reach out. We\u2019re really friendly. We have a huge community and we\u2019re building a movement that\u2019s building this massive other movement that we just need a massive movement globally that is saying, \u201cWe all need to have access to treatments that can heal us.\u201d But bigger than that, our bigger reason for being here was to make sure that the worried well, that people like you and I, Tim, could get access to these treatments to raise our consciousness and to expand our beings and for us to really learn and become curious. Because I think one of your questions is commonly, \u201cWhat would you put on a billboard?\u201d And I would put, \u201cBe curious.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And these medicines really help us to be curious. And if we can awaken people\u2019s curiosity in a world that is so dominated by AI, we just need to go back and be curious and start to ask our own questions, not just to AI, but to ourselves and to what\u2019s here. So I would say to everyone, \u201cLet\u2019s just keep asking questions and not outsourcing ourselves to all of the chatbots and all of the robots.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, sometimes it\u2019s a good idea to take a break from going outside for entertainment and go inside for intratainment.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, intratainment, intratainment that\u2019s a\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> There\u2019s a lot to be curious about.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> There\u2019s so much inside, so much inside. And that was probably the greatest gift of the medicines was it really taught me to explore my inner terrain. I\u2019d always been such an extroverted\u2014I was very introverted as a child, but then I was pretty extroverted as a performer and I still\u2014I\u2019m a pretty extroverted person. But for me to be able to go inside and to actually explore every single night, I lie in bed and I just explore what\u2019s going on inside, I couldn\u2019t have done that without these medicines. They gave me that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. It\u2019s a category of catalysts that is very interesting, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I mean, many people who, I think, listeners would associate with meditation actually never took up meditation until they had their mind\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Changed.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014cosmic egg cracked open by psychedelics, which is not to say you have to start with psychedelics, you don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But many of them have been greatly informed by psychedelics. Ram Dass certainly being one primary example that you mentioned, and there are many, many others.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Well, one of the great things that he said to us when we were with him, was, \u201cWe\u2019re all walking each other home.\u201d And I think that\u2019s one of the really most important things that these medicines teach you, that really we\u2019re all here together. We\u2019ve come from whatever that place is, we\u2019re going back to whatever that place is, and we\u2019re here for a really short time to your point. And so why can\u2019t we all just reach out of hand, get out from behind our boxes and screens and start walking each other home? And so I write songs about that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That\u2019s amazing. Yeah. It\u2019s too bad I never got to meet him. I did watch the documentary about the last chapters in his life. What an incredible human.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Amazing. Becoming Nobody. Have a look at that one. It\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Becoming Nobody. Exactly. Tania, thank you so much for the time and thank you for doing what you do. Please say the same to your husband for me. And the website, I\u2019d like you to add anything else that you\u2019d like to, but mindmedicineaustralia.org.au that\u2019s for the trainings, for the resources. If you want to consider donating and supporting this nonprofit, you can find everything, my understanding is, at that website. Tania\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yep. I have a personal website too. So that\u2019s Taniadejong, T-A-N-I-A-D-E-J-O-N-G.com. It\u2019s my personal website. Please feel free to reach out on any platform. I like LinkedIn, but there\u2019s lots of others. And I just want to just really say to you, Tim, that I just want to say a huge shout out to you for everything that you\u2019ve done, not just in this field, but for your willingness to try to question, to be curious, and to really try to hack yourself and to find things that you can share with others that are going to work for everybody. And honestly, if it were not for you, and you can see this in multiple interviews that I\u2019ve had, probably we wouldn\u2019t be sitting here having this conversation. Australia probably would not be leading the world in this field. And I just want to thank you for all the resources that you give to people every single week. I love your 5-Bullet.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> It\u2019s the first thing I open each week. And just a huge testament to you. And, as you said, when we first met, you never know where these things are going to end up, but I want you to know that your work helped change a whole nation, and not only a whole nation, but because our nation has changed, that has changed the whole world. And there\u2019s a real possibility now, there\u2019s a real hope for everyone that we can actually heal some of the immense suffering in our world, and that brings tears to my eyes just even saying it because we\u2019ve seen the suffering and we have seen, as you would all the time, the most devastating letters and emails from people who\u2019ve they just deserve a chance.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, I do.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> And that was the reason we did this. And I think in spite of us being pushy, our hearts were always in it for the right reasons, and I think people realize that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, thank you, Tania. Thank you for saying that. And you\u2019re right that oftentimes, the 5-Bullet Friday, I\u2019ve been writing this newsletter for, God, I don\u2019t know, 10, 15 years, however, and I do it every week. And sometimes I\u2019m just like, \u201cIs anybody reading this?\u201d I\u2019m not sure. It just gets fired off. And because of the format, I\u2019m just kind of like, \u201cI really have no idea what is resonating, what is landing.\u201d So I have to just follow my own curiosity. And it\u2019s like if I find it compelling, if for whatever reason, even if I can\u2019t justify, it\u2019s tugging on me in some way. I\u2019m like, \u201cAll right, look, maybe there\u2019s at least one other person out there who might resonate in the same way. Let me give it a shot. I\u2019m in there eight, nine billion, whatever the number is, people on this planet. There has to be one other person who speaks English this might get to.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And thank you for saying all of that. Really admire you and what you\u2019ve done with your husband and everybody associated with MMA and the people who also said, \u201cYes,\u201d at the TGA and everybody involved. It\u2019s such a beautiful story. And the fact that you were an outsider, that you weren\u2019t steeped in this from day one, and you were able to just experiment and test and cold email and offer to sing and fly to fricking Wisconsin, the land of cheese, most people are like, \u201cWisconsin, isn\u2019t that where people eat a lot of cheese?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And to move mountains bit by bit by picking the right place to stick that Archimedes lever. It\u2019s a really inspiring story. And part of the reason I wanted to, and I\u2019ve already said this in one way, but have you on this podcast was because I think there are many people out there who underestimate how much they can do if they just grease the elbows and get after it. And it\u2019s like, yeah, you\u2019re going to make tons of mistakes. Yeah, I\u2019m sure you\u2019ll piss somebody off. Yes, yes, yes and but you might also just make a huge thing happen.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Exactly. And do you know what? You never know until you ask, and most people never ask. And you know what? All you have to do is ask, and it\u2019s amazing how many people say, \u201cYes.\u201d Literally just about no one has said, \u201cNo,\u201d to us to join our advisory panel. Literally just about no one we\u2019ve ever asked to do a webinar has said, \u201cNo.\u201d People want to support good causes and good pioneering efforts. We so need this. We are living in a world that is becoming more and more boxed in.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> So we need all of you out there to just grab your dreams, ask for help, and then set them on fire. Not in a bad way, sorry, set them on fire in a really good way.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I think they get it. Yeah, yeah. No arson endorsement on this podcast.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> I\u2019m not very good. I always mix my metaphors like that, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So TLDR, get after it, folks. We\u2019re all going to be dead and dust in no time flat so it\u2019s time to\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Exactly. What have you got to lose? Seriously, what have you got to lose?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Ask for it. People can find you at Mindmedicineaustralian.org.au and your personal website, which you\u2019ve mentioned, yourname.com. And to everybody listening, we will have show notes as per usual at tim.blog\/podcast. Just search Tania, I believe you are the only Tania that I\u2019ve had on the podcast, T-A-N-I-A, and you\u2019ll be able to find everything we talked about, all the people, all the documentaries, all the organizations, et cetera.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s all there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> We\u2019ll put it all in the show notes. And until next time, as always, be a bit kinder than is necessary. Just try to be a little bit kinder than is necessary to other\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Loving kindness.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014but also to yourself.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tania de Jong:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That voice that you put out should echo if you\u2019re being compassionate, the voice that goes in, \u201cDo your best. I know it\u2019s hard.\u201d Thanks for listening, everybody. Thanks for tuning in.<\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<h3 id=\"tania-de-jong-legal-conditions\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">DUE TO SOME HEADACHES IN THE PAST, PLEASE NOTE LEGAL CONDITIONS:<\/h3>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Tim Ferriss owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of The Tim Ferriss Show podcast, with all rights reserved, as well as his right of publicity.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>WHAT YOU\u2019RE WELCOME TO DO:<\/em>\u00a0<em>You are welcome to share the below transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles (e.g.,\u00a0<\/em>The New York Times<em>,\u00a0<\/em>LA Times<em>,\u00a0<\/em>The Guardian<em>), on your personal website, in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., Medium), and\/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include attribution to \u201cThe Tim Ferriss Show\u201d and link back to the tim.blog\/podcast URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>WHAT IS NOT ALLOWED:<\/em>\u00a0<em>No one is authorized to copy any portion of the podcast content or use Tim Ferriss\u2019 name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another\u2019s products or services. For the sake of clarity, media outlets are permitted to use photos of Tim Ferriss from\u00a0<\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/media\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>the media room on tim.blog<\/em><\/a><em>\u00a0or (obviously) license photos of Tim Ferriss from Getty Images, etc.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Please enjoy this transcript of my conversation with Tania de Jong, a co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia.\u00a0In 2023, Tania and her husband Peter helped lead [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":13741,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[13],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-13746","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growth"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13746","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=13746"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13746\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/13741"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=13746"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=13746"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=13746"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}