{"id":11257,"date":"2025-07-28T18:00:52","date_gmt":"2025-07-28T22:00:52","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-chris-hutchins-deal-master-helping-tim-burn-15m-miles-and-points-flipping-costco-gold-into-five-star-trips-flying-to-japan-for-222-tech-tools-and-tric\/"},"modified":"2025-07-28T18:00:52","modified_gmt":"2025-07-28T22:00:52","slug":"the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-chris-hutchins-deal-master-helping-tim-burn-15m-miles-and-points-flipping-costco-gold-into-five-star-trips-flying-to-japan-for-222-tech-tools-and-tric","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-chris-hutchins-deal-master-helping-tim-burn-15m-miles-and-points-flipping-costco-gold-into-five-star-trips-flying-to-japan-for-222-tech-tools-and-tric\/","title":{"rendered":"The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Chris Hutchins, Deal Master \u2014 Helping Tim Burn 15M+ Miles and Points, Flipping Costco Gold Into Five-Star Trips, Flying to Japan for $222, Tech Tools and Tricks, and Avoiding The Optimizer\u2019s Curse (#815)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div>\n<p>Please enjoy this transcript of <a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2025\/06\/11\/chris-hutchins-all-the-hacks\/#content\">my interview with Chris Hutchins<\/a>, the creator and host of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.chrishutchins.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><em>All\u202fthe\u202fHacks<\/em><\/a>,\u00a0a podcast that helps people upgrade their life, money, and travel. He previously founded\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/hellogrove.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Grove<\/a>\u00a0(acquired by\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/wealthfront.com\/tim\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Wealthfront<\/a>) and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/techcrunch.com\/2012\/03\/15\/winning-a-bidding-war-with-facebook-google-picks-up-the-entire-milk-team\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Milk<\/a>\u00a0(acquired by Google), led New Product Strategy at<a href=\"http:\/\/wealthfront.com\/tim\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">\u00a0Wealthfront<\/a>, and was a Partner at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.gv.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Google\u202fVentures<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>Most importantly, he is the person\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLuu6fDad2eJzyeAF4UHnUV5ySRhE3apRa\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Kevin Rose<\/a>\u00a0and I call if we want to figure how to get a better deal on just about anything in the world or if we just want to learn about his latest hijinks doing things like getting $200 flights to Japan, running gold pseudo-arbitrage at retail, or booking dirt-cheap trips to Bora Bora. We cover all three and more in this conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 2+ hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Listen to the episode on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/815-chris-hutchins-deal-master-helping-tim-burn-15m\/id863897795?i=1000712324040\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>,\u00a0<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/18dOETDT1fZsEceMMDjL0H?si=q5zkMO21Rhu7k4Jt7jDqLQ\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/+AAKebtlVkH8\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcastaddict.com\/podcast\/2031148#\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Podcast Addict<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/pca.st\/timferriss\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Pocket Casts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castbox.fm\/channel\/id1059468?country=us\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castbox<\/a>,\u00a0<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/music.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLuu6fDad2eJyWPm9dQfuorm2uuYHBZDCB\">YouTube Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/9814f3cc-1dc5-4003-b816-44a8eb6bf666\/the-tim-ferriss-show\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Amazon Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.audible.com\/podcast\/The-Tim-Ferriss-Show\/B08K58QX5W\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Audible<\/a>, or on your favorite podcast platform. <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/3hCokqJPc08\">Watch the interview on YouTube<\/a>. <\/strong><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-tim-podcast-link-main podcast-block wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><a class=\"podcast-block__link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/815-chris-hutchins-deal-master-helping-tim-burn-15m\/id863897795?i=1000712324040\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"podcast-block__link-icon\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/tim.blog\/wp-content\/themes\/timferriss\/inc\/blocks\/podcast-link\/images\/apple-podcast.png?ssl=1\"\/><noscript><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/tim.blog\/wp-content\/themes\/timferriss\/inc\/blocks\/podcast-link\/images\/apple-podcast.png?ssl=1\" class=\"podcast-block__link-icon\"\/><\/noscript><span class=\"podcast-block__link-text-top\">Listen on<\/span><span class=\"podcast-block__link-text\">Apple Podcasts<\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"wp-block-tim-podcast-link-main podcast-block wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><a class=\"podcast-block__link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/18dOETDT1fZsEceMMDjL0H?si=q5zkMO21Rhu7k4Jt7jDqLQ\"><img loading=\"lazy\" width=\"35\" height=\"35\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"podcast-block__link-icon\" src=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/wp-content\/themes\/timferriss\/inc\/blocks\/podcast-link\/images\/spotify.svg\"\/><noscript><img loading=\"lazy\" width=\"35\" height=\"35\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/wp-content\/themes\/timferriss\/inc\/blocks\/podcast-link\/images\/spotify.svg\" class=\"podcast-block__link-icon\"\/><\/noscript><span class=\"podcast-block__link-text-top\">Listen on<\/span><span class=\"podcast-block__link-text\">Spotify<\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"wp-block-tim-podcast-link-main podcast-block wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><a class=\"podcast-block__link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/+AAKebtlVkH8\"><img loading=\"lazy\" width=\"1000\" height=\"1000\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"podcast-block__link-icon\" src=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/wp-content\/themes\/timferriss\/inc\/blocks\/podcast-link\/images\/overcast.svg\"\/><noscript><img loading=\"lazy\" width=\"1000\" height=\"1000\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/wp-content\/themes\/timferriss\/inc\/blocks\/podcast-link\/images\/overcast.svg\" class=\"podcast-block__link-icon\"\/><\/noscript><span class=\"podcast-block__link-text-top\">Listen on<\/span><span class=\"podcast-block__link-text\">Overcast<\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"podcast-player\">\n<div class=\"podcast-player-inner-wrap\">\n<p>Chris Hutchins, Deal Master \u2014 Helping Tim Burn 15M+ Miles and Points, Flipping Costco Gold Into Five-Star Trips, Flying to Japan for $222, Tech Tools and Tricks, and Avoiding The Optimizer\u2019s Curse<\/p>\n<p><noscript><iframe src=\"https:\/\/www.art19.com\/shows\/58dacbdc-646e-4585-9914-19c3de11d1ba\/episodes\/627ac30a-c491-4e12-a304-0b64431b71d7\/embed?type=micro\" style=\"width: 100%; height: 30px; border: 0 none;\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><em>DUE TO SOME HEADACHES IN THE PAST, PLEASE NOTE LEGAL CONDITIONS: <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>Tim Ferriss owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of The Tim Ferriss Show podcast, with all rights reserved, as well as his right of publicity. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>WHAT YOU\u2019RE WELCOME TO DO:<\/em> <em>You are welcome to share the below transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles (e.g., <\/em>The New York Times<em>, <\/em>LA Times<em>, <\/em>The Guardian<em>), on your personal website, in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., Medium), and\/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include attribution to \u201cThe Tim Ferriss Show\u201d and link back to the tim.blog\/podcast URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.<\/em> <\/p>\n<p><em>WHAT IS NOT ALLOWED:<\/em> <em>No one is authorized to copy any portion of the podcast content or use Tim Ferriss\u2019 name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another\u2019s products or services. For the sake of clarity, media outlets are permitted to use photos of Tim Ferriss from <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/media\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><em>the media room on tim.blog<\/em><\/a><em> or (obviously) license photos of Tim Ferriss from Getty Images, etc.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Chris, as the caffeine is hitting my bloodstream, and we can treat this as a warm-up, who knows? It might make it into the final cut. The goal here, multifold, so shall we call it goals? Is to figure out what on Earth I should do with my Frankenstein of points, and miles and so on, that I have accumulated over my adult life since college, basically. That\u2019s one. The other is to make sure that it doesn\u2019t get into the conversation such rarefied air that people are just like, \u201cWow, this is a great conversation for the 0.001 percent.\u201d Which I actually don\u2019t think we\u2019re at too great a risk of, because, and we\u2019ll get to the total tally and so on, effectively as soon as I began starting businesses, I put everything on my cards.<\/p>\n<p>So advertising, monthly spend, trade shows, anything and everything that I could put on the cards, I put on the cards. And you, of course, are an nth degree black belt in the Jedi arts of points, and various types of arbitrage, and trade, and just general skulduggery. Excuse me, not skulduggery. I just had to use that because Mike Tyson likes that word. And there are levels, and then there are levels. I would like to think of myself as pretty aware of how to find shortcuts here and there, and it\u2019s not really shortcuts that we\u2019re looking for, but kind of clever, elegant, not just techniques, but hopefully we\u2019ll get to some principles overall that will allow people to deal with, what I think is a very common headache. Because in my case, I\u2019ve accumulated all this stuff. And every time I look at my points, and we\u2019re going to get to some of your shenanigans in a second because I want to hop straight to a couple of real-life examples that seem insane.<\/p>\n<p>And people look at these points, I look at these points and I\u2019m like, number one, I have no idea what to do with these. Number two, I assume they\u2019re basically worthless. Number three, I feel like I\u2019ve lost a sucker\u2019s game every time I look at them. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p>That I\u2019ve signed up for a game, that in the end it\u2019s like wandering through a casino, the house always wins. And for all of those reasons, plus just the general brain damage of trying to figure out what to do, and do they make it difficult like an insurance claim? Whatever. I haven\u2019t really put a lot of effort in. Every couple of years I\u2019ll put a few hours in and I\u2019m like too hard, too complicated, don\u2019t want to deal with it. And then I exit the side door, and then I\u2019m right back to where I am. Today I\u2019m looking at this balance of points and stuff. So that\u2019s my confessional, part one, but let\u2019s start. There\u2019s so many different places to start, so I\u2019ll let you choose. And I think it\u2019s fair to say for the record, and you\u2019ve been very transparent about your finances and stuff. It\u2019s not like you\u2019re driving around in a fleet of Bugattis, a different color for every day of the week, that you have a private hangar of 17 jets. That\u2019s not your life. You\u2019ve done very well.<\/p>\n<p>And I don\u2019t know if it was at the same time prior to or after we recorded that mega marathon on podcasting, you wanted to ask me a bunch of questions. So I was like, \u201cHey, let\u2019s just record it.\u201d But you\u2019ve gone full time in the <em>All the Hacks<\/em> ecosphere. I guess this is all to say, I\u2019m trying to set a reference point for people listening for you, because they might assume that you\u2019re like Kevin, as in Kevin Rose, or that you\u2019re a venture capitalist, or that you have tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars, and therefore the numbers that I\u2019m about to give, they might discount. And I\u2019ll just throw those out, and then you can take this tangled mess of an introduction and do with it what you will.<\/p>\n<p>So you bought 300k worth of gold at Costco in the past year, and I\u2019m like, \u201cWait, what? You could buy gold at Costco?\u201d First of all. And then there\u2019s the amount. And then I was asking you about Amazon-related arbitrage. And you\u2019re like, \u201cYeah. Well, that\u2019s fair game, but it doesn\u2019t really happen or work anymore, but I did buy $1 million of gift cards in January, 1.02 million to be precise.\u201d And I\u2019m like, what the hell? Okay, so that is one of the messiest on ramps I\u2019ve ever offered a guest. But why don\u2019t you take that? I think you understand the intention behind it, which is like, let\u2019s give some crazy examples, and let\u2019s also ground in reality who you are. So these numbers are able to be put into some kind of context.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah. I think that the easiest way to explain both those stories and who I am in a very concise way, is that I really like the arbitrage of anything. And I grew up in the maybe upper middle class, middle class, but I went to a private school and my parents didn\u2019t give me money. They weren\u2019t like, \u201cHere\u2019s my credit card,\u201d like many people I knew did. And so I was always like, \u201cHow do I keep up with the Joneses,\u201d per se? But I didn\u2019t have a credit card to take debt out on. There were no other options.<\/p>\n<p>So I was finding these arbitrages early when I was like, \u201cKids like pizza. I want pizza. I don\u2019t have money for pizza. Let\u2019s order pizzas to school, sell slices, and eat my profit so I get free pizza every night.\u201d It was like I\u2019ve always been thinking in the back of my head, \u201cHow do I do the thing that everyone else with all this money and all these resources does? How do I get to do that, even though I don\u2019t have the resources?\u201d So that\u2019s been my MO for life is, I don\u2019t want to sacrifice, but I also don\u2019t want to go into debt, or just spend money I don\u2019t have.<\/p>\n<p>So you mentioned gold, you mentioned gift cards.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>The gift card thing was interesting, because as is sometimes the case with venture-backed startups, companies are willing to take investor money, and sell things at a loss, and lose money to grow. And there was this weird window late last year, early this year, where there were ways that if you were creative, you could buy gift cards, a huge discount.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Gift cards to where? What kind of gift cards?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So there was an app called Pepper.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>And they were selling gift cards for a discount in a convoluted way. They\u2019d be like, \u201cWell, you could get a $500 Amazon gift card for $500, and then we\u2019re going to give you 30x points in 14 days that you can redeem for other gift cards.\u201d But they were holding the best deals for the biggest spenders. So the average consumer wasn\u2019t getting the best deal. And I just realized that I don\u2019t necessarily want to take on the risk of if this company goes under, they owe me $20,000, $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 worth of points. But there were lots of people that did, and they didn\u2019t want Amazon gift cards, so they were willing to sell them at a loss, or not at a loss. At a break even. They were like, \u201cI\u2019ll buy Amazon gift cards for what, at the end of the day, will be 20 percent off, and I\u2019ll sell them for 18 percent off.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And I was like, I could do much better trying to arbitrage that than take on a lot of risk. So I literally sent an email out to my list and said, Hey, who wants to buy gift cards? And I set up an e-commerce site, and we were selling Amazon gift cards at 10 percent off. Now, who doesn\u2019t want 10 percent off Amazon? Why not? But I could buy the Amazon gift cards for somewhere, depending on the day, between 12 percent and 15 percent off. So people were stoked getting 10 percent off Amazon. I was stoked, because I was making a little bit of a profit, but even better, I could buy all those Amazon gift cards from people with a credit card. So I spent a million dollars. I probably made two million points buying those million dollars of gift cards, and then a little bit of on top of that. And then everyone that bought them was like, \u201cI\u2019m saving money on Amazon.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So it was like a total win-win because there was this rare moment where gift cards were selling at ridiculous prices. And that\u2019s still true today. Maybe not as ridiculous, but just so people don\u2019t think, \u201cOh, I missed the boat. This is never possible.\u201d Anyone that has a credit card, whether it\u2019s Amex or Chase, there\u2019s all these parts of the website where it\u2019s like, here are some of the special offers you have on your card. And earlier this year, Amex had one where it was, spend $200 at Lowe\u2019s, get $50 back. I don\u2019t need anything at Lowe\u2019s, but I had that offer on seven different cards. So I took my daughters, we went to Lowe\u2019s, we bought seven $200 gift cards to Dick\u2019s Sporting Goods, and then we just resold them for 91 cents on the dollar. But because we were getting $50 off each $200 purchase, we were buying them for 75 cents on the dollar. That kind of stuff happens all the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So let me hop in here for a second, because I imagine there are some people who are like, \u201cI\u2019m definitely going to do that,\u201d who are listening. And then there are people who may be cut from a similar cloth to myself. And this is part of the reason why before we started recording, I said, Chris, let\u2019s get to unraveling the mysteries of the universe. Because I realized, much like someone said to me long ago, \u201cIf you want to understand somebody, talk to them about money, and talk to them about sex.\u201d Once you get into arbitrage, and time, and value, it opens Pandora\u2019s box to everything, philosophically speaking, your beliefs about the world. That might sound like a grand statement, but here\u2019s where I\u2019m going. There is a religious war afoot. You guys may have seen it in the news. I\u2019m not talking about the Middle East. I\u2019m talking about personal finance, where you have ultra frugality on one end of the extremism, let\u2019s just say, like super, reusing cotton balls, type stuff.<\/p>\n<p>And then you have on the far other end, maybe where I\u2019m perhaps a little bit closer, folks who are like, just make more money. Because the upside is unlimited, uncapped in a sense, whereas you could only save so much money. But what I\u2019m hoping for today is that we\u2019ll explore the whole spectrum, right? Because much in the way I\u2019m going to take a lot of positions in this conversation right now, I\u2019m going to be your defense attorney. And the reason I say that is that for you, it\u2019s turned into your sport.<\/p>\n<p>It started off as kind of a survival arbitrage mechanism to keep up with the Joneses. And then it\u2019s become a professional sport that you play at the highest level. Much like if I go to Uzbekistan, which I did long ago, I might try to learn Uzbek, but for most people, that\u2019s fucking ridiculous. You\u2019d never want to learn any Uzbek. It\u2019s a total waste of time, but that\u2019s my sport. So with all that said, let\u2019s talk about the gold. And then I have some maybe opening questions that we can get into.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>So what\u2019s the story with the Costco gold?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So Costco sells a tremendous amount of gold. I can\u2019t remember the stats, but it\u2019s got to be on the order of hundreds of millions of dollars, I guess, of gold. And it\u2019s funny, because sometimes you\u2019ll check out at Costco, and it\u2019ll be like, \u201cDo you want this gold bar? It\u2019s $3,300.\u201d And it\u2019s like more than anyone would normally spend on groceries at all. Now the crazy thing about Costco is that if you have a Costco executive membership, so they have two tiers, $65 and $130. At the executive level, they give you two percent cash back on everything you spend at Costco, up to $62,500 a year, which for a normal person is plenty of cash back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. I think I see where this amount of gold is coming from.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, but when they sell gold, they don\u2019t have a dynamic price. They say, today, gold is $3,329.99, and the gold market changes throughout the day. So there are times where when you\u2019re at Costco, if you look up online, buying this gold bar and selling it, what would be the margin? And I would say you almost never make money. Costco is not selling gold at a price that you could flip it for a profit, but they are giving you two percent back. And very often, that two percent back makes up the loss you would take reselling it.<\/p>\n<p>And you can buy things at Costco with cash, you could buy things at Costco with a debit card, and you could buy things at Costco with a credit card. So if you were to buy a hundred thousand dollars of gold and you didn\u2019t lose money, you could still keep the points you got from that transaction. But I\u2019d actually argue that if you time it right, you can also make money on the spread, because sometimes that spread might be half a percent, and Costco is willing to give you two percent back, so that 1.5 percent can be profit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay. Got it. So the $300,000 plus of gold basically was hitting the upper maximum of what you could get in terms of cash back?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>When I\u2019m sitting at the checkout counter at Costco, I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, gold\u2019s this price.\u201d I look at my phone and I say, \u201cOkay, what could I sell this gold for? Okay, I could make a profit selling it, forgetting even points, I could just make a profit selling this gold.\u201d Okay, ring up the Costco groceries, total\u2019s $180. \u201cCould you please add five\u201d \u2014 which is the limit \u2014 \u201cfive $3,500 bars?\u201d And they\u2019re like, \u201cReally? Okay.\u201d Your total now, instead of $180, is like $15,180. And then assuming you have a card with the right limit, and your bank\u2019s not going to decline a $15,000 transaction, tap to pay. Thank you, Apple, for the simplicity, and then I literally sell it before I\u2019ve left the store. I\u2019m not trying to invest in gold.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s my question. Okay, so the gold is not solid bars sitting in a shopping cart, because \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>No, you get five bars.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014 there would just be people hanging outside. You do? Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, you get five. I wish I had them here. I have a rack that holds them. But as an example, this is a rack from PAMP, which is this Swiss company that just holds bars. So this rack probably holds 20 bars of gold.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay, wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>One ounce bars.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Hold up. So I guess there are two questions. Do you just basically keep one hand on your concealed carry, which is probably not something you can do in California? But then you take a loop around the store with your shopping cart full of gold, and then return it to the store? When you say you\u2019ve sold it before you leave the store, what do you mean by that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, sorry. So what I mean is, I\u2019ve gone in and I\u2019ve locked in the price. So I did a whole episode, by the way. If someone wants to go really deep, the guy who runs the marketplace Pure, collectpure.com, it\u2019s a gold marketplace for all kinds of stuff. I did an episode interviewing him just about gold, and how that works. So I go in, and it\u2019s a buying, selling marketplace. There\u2019s bids, and asks. And I say, \u201cI\u2019m going to go take one of these things,\u201d and I\u2019ve locked in the price, so I don\u2019t mean I\u2019ve shipped it off. I go to the counter, I give them my receipt, I put it in my pocket. For people who aren\u2019t familiar, an ounce of gold is like three or four credit cards, and that\u2019s in the packaging. It\u2019s even smaller if it wasn\u2019t wrapped. So it\u2019s like six SD cards if it\u2019s unwrapped, so I put it in my pocket.<\/p>\n<p>I usually try to do this earlier, so I\u2019m not just like someone\u2019s watching me pick up the gold, walk out the door and all that, but I haven\u2019t had any issues. And then I go home, and I follow their shipping guidelines to drop it off at FedEx. So it\u2019s kind of funny sometimes to go to FedEx and drop a box off, knowing there\u2019s like $50,000 of gold in the box, but it\u2019s insured, so I\u2019m okay with it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Does it cost you more than your cash back to insure it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>The marketplace insures it for you, as long as you ship it according to their requirements, like double boxed, taped in a certain way. There\u2019s some strict requirements, because they don\u2019t use FedEx for insurance. Obviously, FedEx would charge an insane amount of money, so they use a third-party insurance company.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay. All right, got it. So now this podcast is very self-serving for both of us, in a sense. So this is a way that I am able to recruit you to do a lot of heavy lifting on my points. We\u2019ve discussed this. That\u2019s transparent. And then it\u2019s also a way for you to promote what you\u2019re up to, which is fantastic, because you\u2019ve been able to take something that can be very time-consuming, and also turned it into a business, which is great.<\/p>\n<p>And for people who are wondering, because you may not have Chris as a friend who\u2019s willing to do this on your podcast, we are going to discuss how you can find low-lift approaches, or time-efficient approaches to exploring a lot of this stuff. For instance, there was a website you recommended, Chris, I know we\u2019re hopping all over the place, but I had never even heard of it before. I put it in my newsletter and I\u2019m blanking on the name \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>AwardTool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So could you describe what this is? Because it\u2019s very straightforward, and it was simply off my radar of awareness. So what is this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, so if we zoom back a while, I think we live in this world where credit card points are easier to get than they\u2019ve ever been. If we go way, way back in history, it\u2019s like they didn\u2019t exist, then you could get one per dollar. And now it\u2019s like depending on where you purchase, you could get five points per dollar, you can get a hundred thousand points when you open a card. And then we were in this weird area for a few years, where it was like, well, there\u2019s lots of them, but it\u2019s very difficult to use them, because to get the most value, you have to know all the Jedi mind tricks, if you will. And then a couple of companies came out and said, \u201cHey, we\u2019re just going to build tools that are as simple as Google Flights, that make it really easy for you to find ways to get real value out of your points.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So there\u2019s two sites. And I like them, there\u2019s probably like five or six. I\u2019ll give the three that I like, and how they\u2019re slightly different, But there\u2019s really two things you might want in this world, if you\u2019re trying to use your points. One is, inspire me and give me the best deal. And one is, help me find the best way to get from A to B. So AwardTool, which is the one you talked about, I think is better for the person who\u2019s like, \u201cI want to go to Japan. I have a few days of availability that I could explore. I could go a couple of days earlier, a couple of days late, but ultimately I want to go to Japan.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And that\u2019s just awardtool.com?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/awardtool.com\">awardtool.com<\/a>. So you could say, \u201cHey, I\u2019m going from San Francisco to Japan,\u201d or you could even say San Francisco to Asia, \u201cand I want to go in this window.\u201d And it\u2019ll come back and say, \u201cHere are the best deals.\u201d And you could filter them and say, \u201cI only want nonstop.\u201d \u201cI only want to fly in business class,\u201d or \u201cI only have points with Amex, so don\u2019t show me other options.\u201d And you get these things where right now from San Francisco, and I just looked at Asia, but here, San Francisco to Tokyo in economy on June 5th, 37,000 points plus $11 in taxes and fees. 37,000 points, if you redeem them for Amazon gift cards might get you, I don\u2019t know, I think it\u2019s 0.6 cents, so $222. It is rare that you will find a flight to Japan, even in economy, for $220.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s nuts. Okay, cool. That\u2019s the equivalent I was looking for. What are the other tools?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>The other one that I like is called PointsYeah. And you go to the Daydream Explorer feature, and they just give you a map of the world. And you say, \u201cI want to go to a beach in first class from the United States. Take me there.\u201d And it\u2019ll be like, \u201cWell, did you know that if you want to go to this place, it\u2019s only this much?\u201d So this summer I could go to Lisbon for 45,000 points, but not in coach, in business class. So you want to go to Lisbon in business class for what Amazon equivalent would\u2019ve been like $275. Anyone listening probably knows, you\u2019re not finding $275 business class tickets to Europe in the summer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And there it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So I like that for more of an, \u201cInspire me.\u201d It\u2019s like I don\u2019t know where I want go. I don\u2019t know when I want to go. At the end of the day, I would say, the more flexibility you have, the more your points will take you way, way further. If you come to me and say, \u201cI need to be in Japan, and I need to take this one Japan Airlines flight, and I need it to be on this specific day. What can my points get for me?\u201d It might not be more than you would get just booking the flight on the Amex, Chase, Capital One, et cetera portal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So that\u2019s the conversion. You mentioned a few things that underscore what makes this whole game attractive to a muggle like me, who has not had the inclination, still doesn\u2019t really have the inclination to get really deep in the weeds, right? It\u2019s like, a $222 flight to Japan? $270 business class flight to Europe in the summer? Yeah, of course I want to do that. I grew up being super, ultra, ultra frugal so that hardwiring is still there. So as financial savings catnip, that is very, very attractive. I hate wasting money. I still way over eat, because I\u2019ll save leftovers and stuff, because I don\u2019t want to waste food. I\u2019m still that guy who will pack up everything.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>But this has seemed very complicated, so I\u2019m hoping you can help us uncomplicate it. Before we get there, let me give people a snapshot. So you have, through all of your various techniques, and tricks, and this, that, and the other thing, 22.8 million points, right? Something like that. And what is my total at the moment, roughly? It\u2019s something \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I think you\u2019re at 15.5.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, so it\u2019s 15.5 million. Keep in mind, guys, this is for the last 24 years. And I\u2019ve also frittered some of it away, using Amex points to buy stuff on Amazon and so on, which would get me a heavy ruler on the back of the hand from Dr. Chris, but we\u2019ll get to that. Just a few more factoids. I have not fact checked this, so I\u2019m relying on Christopher, but how significant are loyalty programs to airlines?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>There\u2019s a really great video, if you want to go deep on this. I\u2019ll give you the high level on both loyalty programs to airlines, which is kind of frequent flyer miles. And it\u2019s the craziest thing I think I\u2019ve ever come across when understanding business. And it\u2019s that the market cap of the major three airlines, American, United, and Delta, meaning the total value of the company, they all have a market cap between $6 billion and $20 billion. The market cap of the loyalty point program explicitly, not the airline, but just the subsidiary of it, ranges, depending on the airline, from $22 billion to $26 billion. So the loyalty programs are worth more than the airline itself. And if you actually back out, so everything that is United that is not the loyalty program, is worth negative $12 billion.<\/p>\n<p>So there\u2019s this common understanding in this kind of points, miles, airline world, that airlines really exist to be effectively banks for their miles and points. And then they just have to fly these planes all around the world so that that bank can continue to operate. Because Delta came out and said, I think it was a year ago, \u201cAt 2023, one percent of US GDP went through a Delta Amex card.\u201d So the transaction volume on Delta Amex cards was one percent of GDP. Or I think they said just shy of one percent of GDP. They didn\u2019t give an exact number, but so \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So every time Amex is awarding these Delta miles, every time you\u2019re using your Chase points to transfer to United, they\u2019re effectively selling those points to those banks, so that they can give them to the card holders. So the business of selling those points is massive. And the profit margins of an airline, just the airline part of it, are laughably small. I think the average profit per passenger for US Airlines on average is $10. And I think American Airlines was the bottom. It was the profit per passenger per year on American is $3.40.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So if you\u2019re wondering why they shill those credit cards so hard over the loudspeakers while you\u2019re trying to watch your movie in peace, this is why, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>United Airlines sold almost $4 billion worth of miles as part of their business, this is a little old data, but back in 2019. It\u2019s probably only gone up from that. If anyone remembers during the pandemic, the airlines were hurting, nobody was traveling. So in order to survive, they had to mortgage, they had to basically raise money and they couldn\u2019t put the airline up so all three airlines put their loyalty programs up, that was the collateral and raised, depending on the airline, $6 to $10 billion each using the loyalty program as their collateral.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>This is one of the many reasons, hearing facts like this where I\u2019m like, this is a trap. If I enter into the labyrinth, there\u2019s a reason why these are so profitable for these companies. And it\u2019s not because the person collecting the miles automatically wins, it can\u2019t be, that\u2019s the losing end of the trade for most people, I would have to imagine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>They\u2019re hoping for breakage. They\u2019re hoping you redeem, you get all these miles, you never use them. I think that original models where 60 percent would get used.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Or you let them expire as I did in one case where hilariously, I think I forwarded to you, I got an email from Marriott Bonvoy saying \u201cYour points are going to expire.\u201d And then it gave a date that was months in the past. That was my alert email. I was, well chronologically, unless you guys have figured out time travel, because I haven\u2019t, it seems like I should have received this prior to my points expiring.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Chris, what would you suggest we do in terms of exploring what I should do with my points? We\u2019re always going to bring this back to what people can use. I think people will pick up a lot. We can also sprinkle in some crazy point stories, but I think we\u2019ve given enough of a taste of that that we can look at the actual nuts and bolts of, what do you do? I\u2019m looking at this printout and I\u2019m like, it makes my head hurt just to look at all these airlines with all the points.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So we\u2019ll break the landscape into \u2014 there\u2019s two obvious buckets that people are going to be familiar with. You have airline miles that are linked to a program. So you have some Alaska, some Americans, some Delta and some United, four major US carriers. You\u2019ve got hotel points. I\u2019m not going to tell you what to do with yours because they all expired.<\/p>\n<p>And then you have bank points, and I\u2019m going to call them transferable points. The thing that I really like about transferable points, just to set the difference in people\u2019s mind and why the street value is higher is that American Express \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Let me pause for a second just to say by bank.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>American Express, Capital One, Citibank, Wells Fargo now, Chase, Amex will let you move your points to 18 different airlines. So you could move your Amex points to Delta, you can move them to Air France, you can move them to Air Canada. And so the reason why people love them is when we go back to these tools and you\u2019re searching, \u201cGosh, I want to find a good deal to Europe,\u201d well, sometimes that good deal might be a deal with Air France. Sometimes that good deal might be a deal on United, but it\u2019s [an] even better deal if you book it through Air Canada, which is a partner of United. And so when you have the flexibility to take your points and put them anywhere \u2014 or not anywhere, but to 18 different airlines or five different hotel programs, it just increases the likelihood that you will find a good deal.<\/p>\n<p>I love accumulating transferable points because it just spreads out the surface area of places you can find deals. That said, the best value that anyone\u2019s going to find from their points and miles is on this kind of aspirational travel, meaning long haul international business and first class, luxurious five-star hotels and resorts. Because airlines, while this is a shift, they haven\u2019t fully shifted to the point that a business class ticket might cost 10 times the dollars, but it might only cost two times the points. A really nice luxury resort might be 10 times the cost of the holiday in downtown, but it might only be \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>If you\u2019re paying in dollars.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>\u2014 three or four times the cost in the number of points you\u2019d need. And so that\u2019s where you\u2019re going to get the most value. That doesn\u2019t mean that if you\u2019re someone who\u2019s only traveling domestically, you can\u2019t find good value because there are a lot of cases where you\u2019re flying between small airports, you\u2019re flying during the holidays, you\u2019re flying last minute, and you\u2019ll see a flight where it\u2019s just astronomically expensive for what it should be. And it\u2019s a great deal with points.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I am realizing, I guess a couple of things that I\u2019ll throw out there to act as a stand-in for some listeners.<\/p>\n<p>Number one is that, and I want you to poke holes in this or it can just be fodder for conversation because I\u2019m realizing that our conversation is always, meaning the last handful of weeks at least, focused on what the hell should I do with all these points? Staring at this just makes me feel like a sucker playing a sucker\u2019s game or someone with undone homework and they expire, which is ridiculous because it\u2019s engineered.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Some of them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Some of them expire, but I\u2019ve realized that there\u2019s how to use the miles and then there\u2019s how to accumulate them. Now I have not focused on the accumulate because by and large they seem like games I don\u2019t want to play. I think what\u2019s going to be in the mind of a lot of folks, certainly, why haven\u2019t I done this to date? Time. The Amex is, let\u2019s just say using the Amex on Amazon, it might be a bad trade on the value per point if I assume my time is worth $0, but if it takes me an hour to do something to get a bunch of stuff organized, to find a better value per point, it could be a Faustian bargain if my value of time per hour is high enough.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s always been the crux of the challenge for me. And also I should say, just for people listening, we can assume that my hotel points are usable even though they\u2019ve expired, if that is in any way informative to the conversation.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Also, I just want to explain one of the motivations for reaching out to you was not just how do I use these points, but is there anything crazy I could do with these points? I\u2019m not convinced there is, and there may be things that I could do that seem crazy that are just a poor use of points, but I was, okay, I realize I could use some of this for travel, but I can also afford to pay for travel, which doesn\u2019t mean I should pay dollars instead of points if I\u2019m just looking at the value per point. But is there something big and nutty I could do? One trip where I just blow all of these points.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Let\u2019s start there because I think the reason why the points game is exciting in the first place is that it feels like it\u2019s free. Now, I could poke a hole in that and say, if you just used a cash back card the entire time, instead of having 12 million points, you probably would\u2019ve been sitting on $300,000 depending on the card you were using. If someone had done that, they would probably feel very differently about taking $300,000 they\u2019ve saved and blowing it with no regard. Whereas if they had 12 million points that, in their mind, could not fund their kids\u2019 education, pay their mortgage, et cetera, why not blow it on some wild vacation or something else? There\u2019s this psychological element of I\u2019ve earned these things, they are not dollars. Why not spend them flying Emirates first class taking a shower in the sky, eating caviar and sipping champagne? Why not do that? Because it\u2019s not like I\u2019m dipping into my kid\u2019s college fund where it might feel differently if they had earned cash back the whole time.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It would feel totally differently. I wouldn\u2019t even do it necessarily, but those points are so constrained that it\u2019s, okay, if the only place that I can use these is in say travel, it\u2019s, well, they either never get used or they get used, but I can\u2019t apply them to paying off my mortgage or paying for my kid\u2019s college tuition, so yolo.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I would say in the case of Amex, if you were, \u201cMy time\u2019s too valuable to play this stupid game,\u201d I would say two things you could do. One, tell yourself or whoever books your travel to just book the travel using the points instead of using the dollars. It\u2019s not going to take any more work to go on Amex\u2019s site and say \u201cNew York to L.A. business class flight on United,\u201d book, check out, pay with points instead of dollars. And you\u2019d at least get your one cent.<\/p>\n<p>You could open up a brokerage account at Schwab or Morgan Stanley and open up one card that\u2019s the Morgan Stanley or the Schwab Amex. You could just transfer all your points to your brokerage account.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What does that do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Just turns it into dollars. Depending on the card, what the rate is between 0.8 and 1.1 cents, but there is a way that\u2019s better than Amazon to just dump them into a bank account where you don\u2019t have to think about it and you just have the money. I will say that is an option. For people for whom that feels like the better path, I would argue that they\u2019d probably have been better off from the start just using a cash back card and getting 2.625 percent, which I think is a good target cash back and never having thought twice about points at all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What\u2019s your current favorite cash back card if you had to pick one?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>US Bank launched this amazing four percent card, you had to put $100,000 in a brokerage account and then they were, \u201cOh, wow, this isn\u2019t profitable.\u201d The amount of money that issuers get from swiping cards is not four percent. It\u2019s not even four percent before you pull the margin out for everyone along the way. And so that\u2019s gone. Robinhood has a card that\u2019s three percent, but I\u2019ve heard some, if you start putting too many business transactions on there, they have problems. The most scalable platform that I\u2019m aware of for earning cash back at scale is the Bank of America. I\u2019d say platform, if you have $100,000 with Bank of America or in a Merrill Lynch brokerage account, you effectively can earn 2.625 percent cash back on everything with their unlimited card, their travel rewards card, their premium rewards card.<\/p>\n<p>If you have the premium rewards elite cards, it bumps up travel and dining spend to 3.5 percent. Everything you spend on travel and dining 3.5 percent back, everything else 2.625 percent back. Obviously that assumes that you have the ability to put $100,000 in a brokerage account, you can just invest it in US treasuries. You can move over a Roth IRA, you don\u2019t have to have some Merrill Lynch broker manage your portfolio, but I would say that is the most scalable thing. I know people with large limits can spend lots of money, don\u2019t have cards held up and transactions not post and points disappear. That I think is a solution. If you want something even easier, Fidelity has a two percent cash back card.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re not earning two percent back on everything, I would say you\u2019re missing out. I think if you want the simplest solution for everyone, you should say, \u201cAm I at all flexible enough that I\u2019ll be able to get good use out of these points?\u201d By flexible that doesn\u2019t mean I\u2019m flexible in every vertical. You could be flexible that you could book a trip last minute, you could be flexible that you have to plan it super far in advance. You could be flexible with the destination but not the dates. You could be flexible with what route you take, whether you go nonstop or not. I\u2019d say if you have any amount of flexibility, I think you could get a ton of value and these tools have made it so much easier.<\/p>\n<p>Five years ago, I\u2019d say it\u2019s tough. Now I\u2019d say if you were, I want to go to Europe this summer, and we want to book it more than a month out and we\u2019re kind of flexible where we go, you can get incredible value that will make a cash back card look like a poor return. But if every time you travel you\u2019re like, \u201cI want to fly on this date, I don\u2019t want to change planes and I want to go to this city and I want to book it three months out and I don\u2019t want to have to think about it after that.\u201d You probably would be better off doing cash back the whole time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay, so let\u2019s talk about what I should do with this printout that I\u2019m looking at. It\u2019s not actually what I\u2019ll do with the printout, but what it represents, which is these various points that are scattered across however many. Recognizing that Amex is the 800 pound gorilla that\u2019s where the vast majority are sitting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>After looking at my full picture, we\u2019ll talk about a couple of things. For people wondering, we\u2019re going to talk about what might I do with all this? What do the options look like that pass the sniff test by Chris, and then understanding my psychological profiling. And then also if it could be done again, what should I have done? Why don\u2019t you take us into the land of what might be done with this stuff? And the easiest way to do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I look at all the points. I would say if we focus just on the Amex points, it\u2019s the bulk of everything, it\u2019s a little bit easier to tell a story. You got 12 million Amex points. The easiest thing you could spend them on Amazon, they\u2019d be worth $85,000.<\/p>\n<p>You could just book flights; they\u2019d be worth $120,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right. Use them on Amazon, the 12 million \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>$85,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>85k, all right, got it. Then?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I don\u2019t think you should, by the way.<strong> <\/strong>You could book travel in the portal or transfer them to bank and brokerage accounts, it\u2019d be around $120,000. Just book flights, no problem. If, and I think you do have an Amex Business Platinum, you could just book your flights with points in the travel portal. You\u2019re capped at how much you can do a year, but if every year you used up to 2.85 million, which would take you about five and a half, six years, you\u2019d get $187,000. So, more than the $120,000. And then if you transferred them and booked aspirational things with airlines on long haul international, I think you could get, reasonably, $250 to $600,000 of value. That\u2019s the range. But what should Tim do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, let\u2019s come back to that. On the low end, we have use the Amex points on Amazon because my credit card\u2019s already attached, it\u2019s one click for a checkbox. It\u2019s very easy. That\u2019s taking 12 million plus points and converting it into $85,000 roughly of value. Now on the very high end, long haul international, we\u2019ve got $600k.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, or more. I did some quick math just for fun, and I said, \u201cHey, what are some things I\u2019ve done?\u201d I just looked, we\u2019ve been to the Conrad, which is a chain within Hilton, the Conrad Bora Bora, an amazing property. We\u2019ve been twice now. We\u2019re about to go to the new Waldorf Astoria in Costa Rica, so I looked at those two properties. They have tons of availability using Hilton points. Amex transfers from Hilton one to two so you\u2019d actually end up with 24 million Hilton points and it would be about 200 nights.<\/p>\n<p>If we\u2019re talking extreme, what you could do, you could transfer all those points over and book 200 nights at a hotel that would normally be $1,500 to $2,000 a night, just to give people\u2019s mind \u2014 12 million, what does that mean? It could be 200 nights at an incredibly high-end, beautiful resort. If you wanted to take international long haul flights to Japan and Europe in business and first class at redemption values, I\u2019ve gotten multiple times, not once in a lifetime, it\u2019d be somewhere between 130 and 150 one way flights \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>To Japan.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Let\u2019s call it 65 to 75 round trip flights in business class over an ocean.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Observation\/question. Observation, I had this <em>Shawshank Redemption<\/em> fantasy of sorts to be clear towards the very end of the movie on the beach. I was thinking, well, so one reasonably absurd thing that I could do would be a 200 night writer retreat to Bora Bora. I might end up more like Tom Hanks in <em>Cast Away<\/em>, that\u2019d be my fear, but at this crazy, crazy hotel. So that would be one option for just if I just wanted to yolo burn the whole thing. The other I would imagine, tell me if I\u2019m running up against restrictions here, but it\u2019s if I wanted to take, you said 150 flights, let\u2019s just call it 150 one way flights to say Japan, something like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Sure, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Now I guess I\u2019m going to run up against the monthly limits here, but would there be a way for me to do one flight to Japan with 150 people, myself included?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Let\u2019s address the biggest challenge with getting the most out of these points is airlines do not release every seat available for use with points. When they do, sometimes they release them at tiered pricing. There might be two seats available for 80,000 points, and then the next two are 300,000 and then that\u2019s it. As an example, this trip we\u2019re taking to Japan next year, Japan Airlines releases two seats on every flight when they open the calendar at 360 days. Even knowing everything I know about the system, the most optimal place to put the points to get the deal, we still booked two seats from SFO to Narita and two seats from SFO to Haneda. So my wife and I are each taking one kid, and then we set some alerts so over the next year, if two seats open on either of those flights, we\u2019ll log in and change them. The change fee might be $25 on the airline we booked, but we couldn\u2019t even get four seats on the same flight playing the game as optimally as we wanted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>As it stands right now, it\u2019s you and one kid and your wife and one kid on two separate flights.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>To two different airports. Fuck.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I would say I probably have 80 percent confidence that by the time we take off, we\u2019re all going to be in business class on one flight. I\u2019m about 80 percent confident.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>80 percent is pretty good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>A general rule here, which I\u2019m just going to give that\u2019ll be probably pretty helpful to anyone trying to get the most value out of their points is the way I would say people that play the game at my level do it is even if you know these dates, no flexibility, one of the great things about points is depending on the program, you could book a flight with points and cancel it for no penalty. Maybe you pay a $12 fee, a $25, a $50 fee, depending on the airline, there are different rules. I would encourage you to just search award cancellation rules by airline and you\u2019ll find a list.<\/p>\n<p>What I will often do is say, look, we really want to go to destination X and obviously we\u2019d love nonstop long haul business class. That\u2019s the target, but I don\u2019t see that now. Let me use some of my points to book a long haul premium economy flight and then I will use these tools, AwardTool, PointsYeah, Seats.aero is another one if you\u2019re a spreadsheet nerd. It\u2019s a little bit more database than user-friendly, but it\u2019s really powerful. I\u2019ll set an alert and say, \u201cIf two seats open up in business class on the direct flight or four seats, send me an alert and then I\u2019ll go book that and cancel the other one.\u201d Maybe I have to pay the $12 fee. And so the way most people I know do this is they book something that\u2019s good enough but not optimal. Set an alert and almost always end up with something better.<\/p>\n<p>To the point that we\u2019ve been at the airport check in four hours before our flight from Paris to London, back to San Francisco, alert pops up immediately four hours before departure, cancel that flight, book another flight that\u2019s Paris direct. Now you might not like that last minute, I don\u2019t know exactly if I\u2019m going to take the flight I planned on, but within two weeks of departure, all kinds of stuff happens. You can get on Lufthansa first class, you can get on direct flights. I would say book something that\u2019s good enough, points are often refundable and make it really easy to have speculative bookings. And then you get on something. That said, you\u2019re never going to get 150 seats on the plane. So the best version of that would be to pick a day and buy tickets for 150 friends to go somewhere, but no one\u2019s really going to be going to the same place, so not as fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Asia, we\u2019ll meet up in Tokyo, we\u2019re all flying to Asia. Oh, Laos. Sorry pal, you\u2019re going to have to figure it out. It seems like then for the bulk of my points that are on Amex, long haul I could go to the Amex website, see if I can use points for my already pending international travel or whatever type of travel I might want to add in to use points. Although I think I\u2019m at this point disinclined to do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>My sequence would be find something like AwardTool and say, \u201cI\u2019m going on this trip, let me search it on AwardTool. Can I use my points?\u201d Because chances are you\u2019re going to get two to five cents per point on a good award redemption. Nothing on AwardTool or any of the tools you end up liking? Nothing on AwardTool? Great, I\u2019m going to go to the Amex Travel Portal and I will book it with my points because you have an Amex Business Platinum, if you\u2019re booking it in business class or with whichever single airline you choose like Amex lets you pick one airline for your annual airline credits, whichever one you pick, you can book an economy also. You book it with points, they\u2019ll give you 35 percent of the points you spend back as a refund. It\u2019s a perk of the Business Platinum card and you\u2019ll effectively get 1.54 cents per point.<\/p>\n<p>I would tell you, my guess is that if you\u2019re not that flexible with your travel, that you will, one in probably somewhere between five and 10 times, find a great deal with your points and the other four out of five, nine out of 10 times, you won\u2019t. And that over the long haul you\u2019ll get a blended rate of your points of probably somewhere between 1.7 and two cents because that one time you might get five cents and then the other times you\u2019ll get 1.5 cents. And over the course of the next five years, you\u2019ll burn through all your points, you\u2019ll get twice to three times as much value as you would of using Amazon and hopefully whoever\u2019s helping manage your travel could just have this principle of search for points, don\u2019t find it, use points on Amex, doesn\u2019t work, pay cash.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Also I should point out to folks a few things. Number one, that I do have people who help with travel. I could very easily have an assistant do this and I have still do, for people wondering, virtual assistants in the Philippines and so on. But that this is going to become very different, I would say even in the next 12 months. I\u2019ve already invested in companies that are applying AI specifically to the travel vertical. Most people will be able to use AI agents of some type for a lot of this stuff, I would have to imagine, within the next two years. It could come a lot faster. Having an idea of the process, I think, will prove very helpful. We got AwardTool, Amex. So here are my two questions.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve got points on Alaska, American Airlines, Delta, Emirates, TAP Portugal, et cetera, et cetera, is there an easy way for me to just use those for anything? Zero those out. What is the lowest lightest lift? I guess low makes it a harder lift, but you get the idea, lightest lift in terms of using those or is it, \u201cYou know what? Hey, look, you\u2019re never going to use those for anything just accept that those are basically sunk costs and they\u2019re trying to pull you into the game of accumulating points and you, Tim Ferriss, don\u2019t need to think about it.\u201d Or is there a tool where it\u2019s just, \u201cHey, I\u2019m never going to use these for anything. If I can just trade them in for a fucking box of chocolates and it only takes me 60 seconds, I\u2019ll take the box of chocolates.\u201d Is there anything to be done with these?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I would say the same principle applies. If you look at United, you have United, Delta, American, American and Alaska are both part of the Oneworld Alliance. Delta is part of the SkyTeam Alliance and United\u2019s part of the Star Alliance. Those cover almost, I don\u2019t know, if I had to guess, 90 percent of all long-haul flights you would ever take in your life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>And so whoever\u2019s looking to book your travel, you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, you want to go to Japan?\u201d Way better than any other redemption is just, okay, well United flies nonstop to Japan, depending on what city you\u2019re in, so does Delta and American. You\u2019re going to get at least probably one cent of value from each of those points even if you book it in, like, unoptimally, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Like United, a great deal to Japan might be 80,000 points, but you might also find it for 200,000. But if 200,000 points saves you $8,000, could you do better? Yeah, but I\u2019d rather use that, do that five times, save 40 grand, it\u2019s still a good deal. So the same rule applies, which is I would say when you\u2019re booking a trip, go through that same sequence. A lot of these tools like award tool will show you United, we\u2019ll show you Delta and America. They\u2019re not just showing you what you can do with your Amex points. And I would say with the caveat that because there\u2019s no good alternative, with Amex, you can always use those points to just book any flight on any airline at least one cent. So there\u2019s no point in cashing them out for a box of chocolates. On United, you can only use them to book United and their partners\u2019 flights.<\/p>\n<p>But the flip side is that there is always a price, right? Even if there [is] one last seat, they will still sell it to you with points. It might be a lot of points, but you could still use it for that flight. And so I would be blown away if over the next three years you don\u2019t take at least one flight that is on each of those airlines or their partners.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>And the good news is with United, if you want to book five seats in business class to Japan, it\u2019s going to be easier to find five seats. It\u2019s not going to be as good of a deal. But you know what? If otherwise you\u2019re not going to use them, why not?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, also deal, there\u2019s the micro deal and then the macro deal, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Sometimes it just feels good to take a free trip. Who cares if it was a good deal? You went on a trip you weren\u2019t going to take otherwise.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> If it\u2019s a good deal because you have five people flying to the same destination and you know it\u2019s guaranteed versus we\u2019re going to be scattered to the wind and then have to find one another like <em>Lord of the Rings<\/em> or something, then fantastic, right? Then psychologically that\u2019s also a good deal.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Are there any options, and I think the answer is no, but outside of travel that are interesting in terms of using points? Let\u2019s just say hypothetically I was like, \u201cYou know what? Decided I\u2019m going to stay in the US for the next three years. And maybe I\u2019ll stay in Austin for the next three years straight. I\u2019m tired of traveling.\u201d Are there any uses of these points? Even if they\u2019re not, what are the best options of the worst options? It might be the way to word it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean, I just looked and they shut down and so I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s going to be an alternative, but there is a company that used to exist called Miles4Migrants that basically you hand over your miles and they help refugees relocate around the world using your miles.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay, that\u2019s interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>But it looks like they don\u2019t exist. It looks like they have a, \u201cIt\u2019s with sad hearts we share this news.\u201d So there might be some ways to use them for someone else, something like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So that\u2019s one altruist. It\u2019s a very charitable cause. It provides no value to you. I don\u2019t even think you get the tax write-off, but you\u2019re helping people relocate fine with miles you don\u2019t need.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s fine. But here\u2019s the thing, I donate a lot of my stuff because if I go and I look at my \u2014 you and I both know I have no fashion sense, so it\u2019s like if I go upstairs and I\u2019ve got a lot of extra clothing, I\u2019m like, \u201cFrom one to 10, how much value am I driving from this shirt?\u201d It\u2019s kind of a very left-brained Tim, Marie Kondo version. So instead of sparking joy, I\u2019m just like, \u201cFrom 1 to 10, how much value am I getting out of the shirt?\u201d Haven\u2019t worn it in four months. That\u2019s like a one or a two max. If I gave this to Goodwill, somebody would get a seven or eight or more out of it if they really need it, maybe a 10. That\u2019s just a better use of this thing in the world, right? So for me, I could see actually doing something like that with points.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>If you found a charity that you cared about and said, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve got all these points, can I just help you out?\u201d There\u2019s a listener of our podcast and he reached out to me and we talked and he runs a few shelters around the world for women that are suffering from domestic violence and all kinds of stuff and human trafficking. And he\u2019s like, \u201cI use all my points just for the business.\u201d All the points his company earns, he uses to book trips for people, for refugees, all this kind of stuff who have a lot more flexibility. So there\u2019s a way that I\u2019m sure someone listening that could reach out and be like, \u201cHey, we could help put these to use if you don\u2019t want them but \u2014 \u201c<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I\u2019m going to get so many fake \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Oh, for sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014 scammers asking for points. But yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>\u201cTim, give me your points.\u201d But I would say the easier solution is just decide where you want to give with your dollars. And whenever you\u2019re taking a trip, tell whoever\u2019s booking your travel, and this applies to anyone listening, just go, \u201cLook, what would it cost on United? Let\u2019s just book it with United this time.\u201d And it\u2019s often great deals like we\u2019re going to Cabo and it was a great deal to use points, especially because we weren\u2019t sure which day we wanted to come back. So we just booked it for both days and you can cancel with no penalty. So even if it\u2019s not a great deal, just start cranking through them.<\/p>\n<p>You don\u2019t have any, but just in case anyone\u2019s in Austin, one of the best uses of Chase points is transferring them to Hyatt because Hyatt just is one of the hotel groups that just continues to deliver great value. And there\u2019s a Miraval wellness resort right outside of Austin \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, yeah, I\u2019ve been there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>\u2014 that\u2019s like all-inclusive and you can use your Hyatt points there. You don\u2019t have anything that would get you Hyatt points, so it\u2019s not relevant to you, but there are a lot of domestic ways that you could use your points even if you\u2019re not leaving the US.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So let\u2019s look at a situation on my spreadsheet here, which is let\u2019s pretend the numbers are bigger than they are. So I have points on Emirates Skywards and I have points on TAP Air Portugal, the numbers are not as big as the other airlines, but let\u2019s pretend that these were more miles because I\u2019m bringing these up, as you can guess, because they\u2019re both expiring this year. What can people do if they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, shit, I\u2019ve got three to six months, maybe it\u2019s a year, before these things expire. I do not have any need, maybe no desire to take an emergency trip to fill-in-the-blank location.\u201d Is there anything to be done or is it just like, \u201cAh, you son of bitch, you got me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>No, there\u2019s multiple things. So most of the programs in the US now don\u2019t expire. If you have the credit card with a company you earn points in, usually the credit card points don\u2019t expire. But a lot of programs do. And I\u2019d say there\u2019s two versions of expiration. There\u2019s a couple airlines, Japan Airlines, ANA, where it\u2019s truly like three years and they\u2019re gone, nothing you can do. And then there are a bunch where it\u2019s like, I think American Airlines, if you have no activity for two years, they expire.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Loyalty rewards. Sometimes the stick is better than the carrot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I have, in the past with American, I\u2019ve donated a thousand miles, that\u2019s activity, that kicks you another two years down the road. You can buy a magazine with your miles, kick the can two years down the road. Emirates, for example, lets you transfer your Emirates points to Marriott. So funny enough, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got Marriott points, they need some activity or they\u2019re going to expire. You have Emirates points, maybe you could transfer all your Emirates points to Marriott, which you\u2019re probably more likely to find a hotel that you could use to book with Marriott points and cash out your Emirates balance. With TAP Air Portugal, you\u2019ve got an orphaned 6,500 miles, probably not even enough to book really anything, I honestly wouldn\u2019t feel too guilty just letting them expire.<\/p>\n<p>The thing that I would note in the future for someone listening is TAP Air Portugal is a part of, I believe it\u2019s Star Alliance. Yeah, Star Alliance. Whenever you fly on TAP, you should just put in your United number, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Like, try not to overcomplicate things. You\u2019re flying on Air France, put in your Delta number. Do I think Delta points are the best ever? No. And if you want to play this game at a crazy level and have six-figure balances in 25 airlines, great. But when you\u2019re getting started, if you have Delta, American, or Alaska and United, any foreign flights credit there and then you don\u2019t have to worry about having these little balances all over the world in random airlines.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s a good point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>But at 6,000 points, I don\u2019t care. At Emirates, if you thought one day you\u2019d use them, great, otherwise I\u2019d transfer them to Marriott. I will say there\u2019s a strange reason why I ended up with 25,000 Aegean Air miles, which is a Greek airline part of Star Alliance, and I was like, \u201cWhat do I do with these miles? I\u2019m not going to go to Greece.\u201d But Aegean Airlines is part of Star Alliance, so I just use them to book a flight from San Francisco to Denver on United. Now 6,000\u2019s not enough to do that. So I wouldn\u2019t even worry about it. But if you had, and Emirates is not part of any of the major alliances, they have some partners, but because they have the escape valve of transferring them to Marriott, I would just be done. But if you had some Air France miles, you could probably use them even if you weren\u2019t going to France to book a Delta flight or if you had British Airways, an American flight, or something like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Got it. Okay, that makes a whole lot of sense. All right. Where should we go from here? I mean I\u2019m tempted to sprinkle in some crazy point stories, but we could also go somewhere else, right? Because it seems like the answer is use these for flights that are coming up, they don\u2019t expire. There\u2019s definitely part of me that\u2019s like, \u201cGod, it\u2019s not very inspiring,\u201d but I certainly could do it. That\u2019s the best value per point is to use AwardTool and then if that fails, Amex Travel Portal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>What if we did it this way? I said the best deals are with the ultimate flexibility. So you could say, \u201cHey, just blow my mind. Make me feel like I got so much value out of this.\u201d What could we do? What could we do that\u2019s really awesome? Block off a week and say, \u201cThis week I\u2019m just going to blow it out of the water and I\u2019m going to do something awesome and I don\u2019t know what that\u2019s going to be. I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s going to be.\u201d And you go to one of these tools and you say, \u201cWhere can I go this week?\u201d And I think you could have a good time anywhere.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I agree.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So for example, Seats.aero, one of the cool things they have is they have this tool that\u2019s like the ANA first-class finder and the Lufthansa first-class and the JAL first-class finder. So you could say, \u201cLufthansa first-class.\u201d Well, for anyone who\u2019s interested, the San Francisco to Frankfurt flight today you could book using United miles in first-class for 165,000 points. Now one of the best things about Lufthansa first-class, and I\u2019ve not been able to fly it, is that in Frankfurt they have their own private first-class terminal that\u2019s separate from the other terminal. It\u2019s known for that if you go take a bath there, they give you these rubber ducks that you could post on the internet that show people that you flew first-class on Lufthansa. But you could basically just schedule a, \u201cI\u2019m going to take an amazing trip, I\u2019m going to go somewhere awesome,\u201d and just see where that leads you.<\/p>\n<p>And so we\u2019ve done this a handful of times and we ended up at this amazing resort in Majorca last year called Cap Rocat. It\u2019s a small luxury hotel of the world, it\u2019s built in an old fortress. If you just search for it, you\u2019re like, \u201cWell that looks beautiful.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If you want to go in the summer, it\u2019s like 2 to 5,000 a night. And we\u2019re like, \u201cWow. Hilton has five nights here.\u201d We had five free Hilton night certificates. We found some points to get ourselves to Europe.<\/p>\n<p>I think one interesting thing for people to consider, we live in the Bay Area, we wanted to go to Majorca. If you just search for a flight from San Francisco to Majorca, it\u2019s going to be a lot harder to find a good deal. So instead we searched for San Francisco to Europe, we ended up getting a flight to Paris and then we just bought a $79 ticket from Paris to Majorca. So consider the fact that you could buy really cheap flights at the beginning or end of your trip and your points are going to get you on these long haul routes. So we ended up having a $20,000 vacation. We didn\u2019t even realize when we booked it that we were flying to Paris during the Olympics. So we ended up staying there for two days and going to the Olympics and we did the whole thing on points. It was like $20,000 saved, not $20,000 of value because it was actually saved over if we had paid cash. So it was amazing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. All right. I like that idea.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I would challenge, give me a week of your time and I will come back with a, \u201cTim is going to this place in this amazing deal and he\u2019s going to stay at this incredible property and just unwind for a week and explore whatever part of the world we send him to.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Sierra Leone Four Seasons, here I come. So what was the name of that place? Sip Rocat? No, what was it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Cap Rocat.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Cap Rocat. Sounds like a Russian prison drug. I like it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Beautiful hotel. There\u2019s tons of \u2014 I mean, I don\u2019t know what Majorca is in October, but right now you can go for a week or two in October. Obviously I know summer\u2019s probably the prime time, but I think when you start to look at shoulder seasons and last-minute stuff, you could just get crazy, crazy deals.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Shoulder seasons means right outside of the prime season like to either side of it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, so we\u2019re going to Costa Rica in June, which is not the height of rainy season, but it\u2019s certainly not the most perfect time to go to Costa Rica. It\u2019s not necessary. I think we\u2019re going to hit Japan, obviously, cherry blossom season is flexible, but I think we\u2019re going to hit Japan in prime time next year. And so you don\u2019t have to wait for shoulder season, but there\u2019s just so many better options.<\/p>\n<p>I think we mentioned all these tools before, but when it comes to hotels, a lot of these tools also have the same thing for hotels. So you can go switch from the flight page to the hotel page. Seats.aero has a sister site called Rooms.aero and you can literally be like, \u201cFind me a small luxury, a hotel in the world that has five nights available June 25th. Where am I going?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Now is the .aero like a wink, wink insider thing in the travel world, or is that just an indication of the person who made this spreadsheet-heavy website is the same person who should not be in charge of branding?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I know the guy behind it\u2019s an engineer and I think it was like, \u201cWhat would be a cool, easy name? Seats.aero.\u201d Like easy domain, short word.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Arrow spelled like an arrow, A-R-R-O-W?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Oh, sorry, A-E-R-O. Seats.aero like an aeronautical airplane.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, Jesus. See there\u2019s the problem. There\u2019s the problem. I got it, .aero, A-E-R-O. I am absolutely not the only person who immediately went to arrow, A-R-R-O-W.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I\u2019m very glad we clarified that, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Show notes would\u2019ve been messy. Okay, so I want to explore a couple things. Number one is points gone wrong. In other words, where you did something and you\u2019re like, \u201cFucking a, that was just such a waste of life energy,\u201d right? There must be some examples of where this didn\u2019t work out or where you had a practice and you were like, \u201cAt the end of the day, isn\u2019t worth it.\u201d Now I have to bust your balls about this because it\u2019s just so funny.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve heard you tell stories of comparison shopping for fruit at the grocery store. Well, you will drive from one grocery store to another to save something like, correct me if I\u2019m getting this wrong, but two or three bucks on berries, something like that. But I\u2019m wondering even for you if there\u2019s been an example where there\u2019s a practice or an attempt and you\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, that really didn\u2019t work out, that was just way more headache or way more time than ended up being worth it,\u201d right? The juice wasn\u2019t worth the squeeze. How often do you feel that way and can you give an example?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I think, I don\u2019t know, I\u2019ll call it the optimizer\u2019s curse, but that is the challenge that I have learned to get better at over the last year or two or three, which is take the berries example. I think I\u2019m probably more likely to look online, be like, \u201cShould I order my groceries from Amazon Fresh or Whole Foods and which one\u2019s cheaper,\u201d than necessarily drive store to store. But I\u2019ll credit Ramit Sethi for these money rules where it\u2019s like, okay, for groceries we stop caring, it doesn\u2019t matter. Now does that mean that when I go to Costco to buy berries and I might see blueberries are twice the normal price, maybe we just buy strawberries instead and I\u2019m not going to not buy berries if they\u2019re expensive, but I might pick the berry that\u2019s the better deal this week. But I\u2019m not going to not do it and I\u2019m not going to drive to the grocery store to get it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Throw in $15,000 worth of gold bars with my bargain basement strawberries.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s a rounding error, the transaction would be 15,000 and 12 or 15,000 and 14. But I\u2019ve had to get a lot better at this because there are times where I could spend three hours trying to find a flight deal and figure out the most optimal way to do it, only to be like, \u201cOh, we\u2019re not even going to take this trip.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Right, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>My wife sometimes asks me, I was like, \u201cHey, which flight should we take for this trip?\u201d And then she\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m okay answering that question, but why do I have a 47-row spreadsheet as the source of this information?\u201d And so for me, part of it is sport, like we talked about, part of it is figuring out at what level do we stop caring? So it\u2019s like when I was early to this game, it\u2019s like if I\u2019m going to save $20, I\u2019ll stop caring. Maybe now that threshold\u2019s at $100, maybe for some people it\u2019s at $1,000 or even higher.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>So I\u2019ve gotten better at, \u201cIs this a thing I want to optimize, or is this a thing where I\u2019m just going to buy the flight? I\u2019ve got to go to this conference in San Diego, flights aren\u2019t that expensive, let\u2019s just buy it.\u201d For anyone thinking that way, and this is also good for you, there\u2019s this great browser extension called Points Path, which just layers on Google Flights.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Points Path.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>And then they have an opinion and they\u2019re like, \u201cThis is a good deal with points. This is a good deal with cash.\u201d So you\u2019re like looking on Google Flights to go to San Diego and it\u2019s like, \u201cHey, actually just go transfer, go use United Points. Don\u2019t buy this one. This is a bad deal.\u201d So it\u2019s even easier than these other tools because it lives where you\u2019re already searching<\/p>\n<p>Now, and sometimes I\u2019m like, \u201cLet\u2019s just book it, be done. I don\u2019t want to spend my afternoon on saving $5 or $20 or even $50.\u201d I kind of do at $50, but I should not. So I think that\u2019s it. Sometimes this stuff goes wrong and wrong is a stretch, but I make mistakes that I talk about not making all the time. And I had this woman, Devon Gimbel, who has a podcast called <em>Point Me To First Class<\/em> on, and we talked about the point journey and you start off and it\u2019s so great. You\u2019re like, \u201cI used my points at Amazon. This is amazing.\u201d And it feels like points are amazing. And then you start to learn more and I think it\u2019s the Dunning-Kruger effect. It\u2019s like now that I know a little more, oh, man, now I\u2019ve been doing it wrong the whole time, you feel terrible and then you start to learn and you\u2019re like, \u201cNow I\u2019m doing great again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But there are going to be a lot of people that listen to this conversation right now and they\u2019re like, \u201cNow I know more. Now I feel worse about what I\u2019m doing.\u201d There is another side to that like the valley of despair. We\u2019ll get past it or listen to that conversation I had with her and that would help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Wait, the value of despair, is that \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Valley of despair.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, I like both. Yeah, that\u2019s like the trough of sorrow in Y Combinator.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yes. Yeah, I think there\u2019s dozens of names of what it means to learn more and then not yet master it and all that. So I think to where you were going, I have made mistakes. I\u2019ve booked flights that were non-cancellable and then tried to cancel them and got no refund. I\u2019ve booked trips we never needed to take. I\u2019ve booked backup flights and forgot to cancel them and lost points. Make tons of mistakes doing all this, that\u2019s just how we learn. And even once you know the things, you do it wrong. But the value of everything I\u2019ve gotten out of it has far exceeded those mistakes and I\u2019m okay with making those mistakes. And I\u2019ve just learned to say, \u201cIs this the giant trip of the year where we can save $10,000,\u201d or is this the, \u201cI need to go to this place for a meeting and it\u2019s not worth my time?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, totally.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>And that changes, right? Earlier in your career it might always be worth your time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, for sure. Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah, back in the day. I mean, when I first moved to Silicon Valley \u2014 I don\u2019t know if I ever told you this. When I very first moved, it was 2000, couldn\u2019t find an apartment, bought a standby ticket to, I think it was I was just waiting for San Francisco or San Jose. So I wore my one suit, back when I thought I needed a suit to do job interviews in Silicon Valley and ended up staying at a kickboxing gym. This was Fairtex Gym and I lived on a bunk bed with one of the Thai guys up in basically the attic and I would wash my clothing in the sink. And so I was definitely looking for any cost savings that I could find in any capacity whatsoever. And like you said, the threshold has just changed over time and how I think about my time has changed over time.<\/p>\n<p>But I\u2019ll talk about another optimizer\u2019s curse actually, because I don\u2019t think this gets as much air time, or at least I haven\u2019t heard very many people talk about it. There\u2019s the curse of over optimizing deals\/frugality, but then there\u2019s the curse of over optimizing efficiency where people come to value their time so highly that any wasted minute causes tremendous psychological anguish. Do you know what I mean? If they have to wait for something for five minutes, it bothers them to such an extent, maybe even after the fact, that just like the frugality and excess kind of becomes the opposite of what you were looking for, which is this psychological piece perhaps, or quality of life. The same thing is true with people who feel like they have more money than time, or that their time is incredibly, incredibly valuable. Like there is a point where it starts to hurt you and not help you. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So finding that Goldilocks is something I think about a lot because if you read <em>The 4-Hour Workweek<\/em>, whatever, yes, there are guidelines for people who have perhaps not ever tried to objectively value their time for looking at annual income and cutting this and this to determine your kind of hourly rate per se, the value of an hour of time. But when you take that and apply it to everything and start to really ratchet up your perceived value of time, it can actually create a lot of anxiety, which I imagine the sort of hyper frugality side can as well, so that you share more in common than I think people might realize.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I think about this all the time. When I spend time, the fact that it is sport makes it easier for me to justify spending an hour going down a rabbit hole because not only do I kind of enjoy the process, but also I have a podcast, I can share the process with other people and then they can skirt some of the process by not making the mistakes I do. On the flip side, I often think about what is my time worth? I get requests for people to, \u201cOh, hey, could you consult on this thing? And I\u2019m like, \u201cIt\u2019s just I got other stuff to do.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, if I said no to a consulting call for $250, then my time must be worth $250. Do I want to lay in bed and watch this movie? It\u2019s $250 to watch a movie.\u201d Somehow I\u2019ve been able to just be like, \u201cNope.\u201d And I just ignore it all.<\/p>\n<p>But I imagine there are people that think about that and can\u2019t stop thinking about it. And my only advice is to just try to not calculate every little thing because it\u2019s impossible and think about maybe your 9:00 to 5:00 time, think about your work hours of whether they\u2019re most efficiently used, but in free time I try to ignore the value of time. It\u2019s like, does it cost me $1,000 an hour to play with my kids? That\u2019s just a ridiculous thing I\u2019m not even going to entertain.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Where are the robots when you need them? Don\u2019t worry, they\u2019re coming. Soft hands, soft hands. Don\u2019t be the first of 100 parents to test them out.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>So looking at what I\u2019ve done, I also want to ask you about the future of travel. So I\u2019ll just plant that seed. What do you think the space is going to look like in the next handful of years, or what innovations you\u2019d like to see?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>What could I have done in the beginning? What would you have done differently looking at what I\u2019ve accumulated?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So I tried to model out what you could have done and what the impact would\u2019ve been.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, boy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>And my rough answer, and I built this whole, I don\u2019t know, this optimizer\u2019s tool, which was like you could basically put in how much you spend and you could check off which cards you have and see other cards and see how much better it would be if you had other ones. The short answer is almost everyone is optimal with two things. A card that gives them elevated earning on the things that they spend the most on, and a card that gives them two percent or 2X points on everything else that is the optimal solution. And so in the case of the Amex Platinum Card, which I have multiple of, you\u2019re getting one point on everything and five points on flights specifically booked with the airline. And so not a great card for anything other than flights booked with airlines, but getting five points on flights booked with airlines, excellent. But if you figure 90 percent of the spend you put on that card was not a flight booked with an airline \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s advertising for companies yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, advertising. I would say for your specific case, it\u2019s like, well, the Amex Business Gold Card gives you 4X points on advertising spend \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I fucked that up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>\u2014 up to $150,000 a year, but you\u2019d be much better off getting 4X than 1X on ad spend, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s much more than I put on travel. I mean by 10X, 20X, 50X, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>If you took a card like Capital One has the venture and the Venture X Card, and on the business side they have the Venture X Business, which is just 2X on everything. There\u2019s no games to play. It\u2019s not which, what do I use for this? You\u2019d get 2X on everything. You would\u2019ve probably been a lot better off. Because you were getting five on flights, but one on everything else. The Amex Business Platinum does one and a half on purchases over $5,000. So maybe you were getting one and a half on a lot of those things for business, but you could have just gotten two on everything, it probably would\u2019ve simplified your life. And then you could have picked a card, whether it\u2019s personal, I\u2019ll focus, personal use case, which is the Chase Sapphire Reserve Card is 3X on travel and dining. The Amex Gold Card is 4X on dining and groceries.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t want to go down to every card under the sun, but there are cards that are targeting people who spend in categories that are pretty common, like travel and dining are two of the biggest ones where cards reward you. So I think the average person is best off with a card that earns three to four points on the categories they spend the most on, and a card that earns two on everything else. And whether that\u2019s two points or two percent cash back, kind of is up to you.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Do you want to play the game and try to get the most out of it and take all these aspirational trips, or do you want to just put cash in the bank and not worry about it? And that doesn\u2019t mean you can\u2019t get some of the value. If we loop back to one example I should share, the Caprocot Hotel, beautiful hotel. It was 120,000 Hilton points per night. Hilton points, when I booked the hotel, were on sale for half a cent each.<\/p>\n<p>So there\u2019s this crazy arbitrage that required no playing the points game, which was a night at the hotel was like $3,000 or 120,000 points, but on the website, the same day you could just buy 120,000 points for $600. So someone who\u2019d been playing the cash back game their whole life could just go to the Hilton website, buy 120,000 points for $600, book the $3,000 room for 120,000 points and get effectively the same elevated value that I got from playing the points game without ever playing the points game.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. That was on the same website.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I mean that was just on hilton.com. The Hilton points are notorious for going on sale all the time. I will say, Chase, you can\u2019t buy Chase points, you can\u2019t buy Amex points, airlines points go on sale from time to time. So there are places where you could buy points from airlines if you see an amazing deal. And I would encourage people to do that. Let\u2019s say you have no points and you\u2019re about to take a big international trip, go to award tool, go to points. If you see a ridiculous deal and you don\u2019t have any points, chances are, at least one of the airlines you can book that deal from sells their points. And it might be a better deal to go buy United points or Air Canada points and book it with points.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So let me hop in here, all right. So I\u2019d love the kind of on the same website arbitrage, because it makes me think that there\u2019s some guy running spreadsheets doing all sorts of fine-tuning internally who\u2019s like, this is for my boys and girls who get the game just planted like this Easter egg, wink, wink for anybody who actually happens to get the scent trail. I like that story so I\u2019m going to stick with it. But \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>The reality is most people that have a Hilton account and have Hilton points are using it to book a night at the Hilton Garden Inn for their family reunion in some city in America. They\u2019re not trying to go to the Maldives or Bora Bora every weekend and then they\u2019re not ready to book it on a dime. These aspirational stories are just that, they\u2019re aspirational. And so if they\u2019re not in your short-term future, racking up Hilton points doesn\u2019t do you a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right, so let me just come back to my own situation. So it sounds like for what I\u2019m doing, assuming that, because this is going to be true for, I would imagine a lot of solopreneurs or entrepreneurs with small businesses that the vast majority of their expenses are on things like advertising, media, maybe also for different service providers like email service provider, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, those are going to be the big buckets. So it sounds like a next step for me at the very least would be to get a Gold Card to \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Business Gold, just to be clear.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Business Gold, thank you. Business Gold. Just to move those types of expenses to that immediately. It doesn\u2019t take much for me and it will I guess 1.5 to 4X my return on that spend.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah. And then if someone\u2019s in the Chase ecosystem, there\u2019s a Chase Ink Preferred Card, which is 3X on ad spend and travel. I think it\u2019s also office supplies and shipping or something like that. I can\u2019t remember all of them off the top of my head. So that\u2019s one path. The other path is, okay, yes, you like these points, but you don\u2019t really get a lot of tangible value in the moment from them. Until you can redeem them, there\u2019s no value. So what some people do, and clearly one percent of GDP on Delta cards is an example. Most of the airline credit cards and Hyatt, notably because they don\u2019t just give away their top tier of status, you can spend your way to status on most of the domestic airlines like United, American, and Delta and Hyatt their highest global status.<\/p>\n<p>So you could get a Delta Reserve Amex, throw a million dollars of spend a year, and you\u2019d be Delta Diamond. I don\u2019t know the exact number depending on the airline, it\u2019s between 200, $400,000 a year would get you their highest tier of status.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What does it give you? Caviar and blowjobs?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Depending on the airline, it might be priority boarding, upgrades as available, not anytime, free Wi-Fi, whatever the perks are. Southwest is one of the ones where you actually get the guarantee. If you earn 125,000 points on Southwest, if you spend $125,000 on a Southwest card, you will get a companion pass. You can name any person your companion and every time you fly, as long as there are two seats on the flight, they will fly free with you. And it\u2019s not two seats when you get there, you can reserve the seat when you\u2019re booking. So right now, my wife is my companion on Southwest. If I buy a flight, she can come for free, taxes excluded. So you pay the $5 to $50 depending on where you\u2019re going. That one\u2019s one where every single flight.<\/p>\n<p>So if you flew Southwest a lot, which I\u2019m guessing you don\u2019t, spending 125,000 on a Southwest card, bring your companion for free. I know a lot of people, my sister-in-law actually and her husband, they own a handful of small businesses in Colorado and they have two kids. They put a ton of their business expenses on two different Southwest cards, they each have companion pass because of it. All the points and miles they\u2019ve earned from Southwest, they use to buy flights for them and their kids fly free with them everywhere they go.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, makes sense.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Could they have had more Amex points or Chase points if they played the game differently? Maybe. But right now do they get to take vacations all the time with their family and never pay for any of it and their kids are always free and their flights are paid with the points they earn on the card? Yeah, pretty cool. They don\u2019t think about the cost of travel. Now they can only go where Southwest goes if they want to go for free so trade-offs, but.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean it\u2019s all trade-offs and I actually do sometimes fly Southwest, you\u2019d be surprised to know it\u2019s not all the time, but Southwest and JetBlue, I actually fly with some regularity. That\u2019s a story for another time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>But I just share that, someone who spends a lot of money for their business or their person, the optimal solution might be to get a card that matches their expenses or a 2X two percent card and just throw all the business expenses on those cards. And for that case, Bank of America similarly, has business cash back cards that if you put $100,000 in a business bank or brokerage account, you get 2.625 percent back on every business transaction. That\u2019s the primary business card we use.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Which was that again?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>The way Bank of America works, they have this program called Preferred Rewards. And depending on how many dollars you have on deposit, they multiply your earnings by up to 175.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, that\u2019s clever. Clever monkeys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So the card is marketed as earning 1.5 or two points and then they multiply it. So it\u2019s a little, I wouldn\u2019t say it\u2019s that complicated, but it\u2019s not as straightforward in that they\u2019re not marketing as that. But on the website they say, \u201cDeposit $100,000 and hold it at a Bank of America account for your business 2.625 percent. If you\u2019re a business that doesn\u2019t want to think about this game, and you just want to get the rebate on everything, great.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right, so the future of travel, we can come to, I know I bookmarked that, so I\u2019ll let you choose, I\u2019ll give you a couple of prompts. Pudding cups, US Mint, or your wedding \u2014 which would you like to go with first?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>They\u2019re pretty short stories, so I\u2019ll just run through them in the order you gave them. So this guy Dave Phillips, back in the late \u201990s, noticed that there was this promo from Healthy Choice, if anyone remembers the green brand that made all these \u2014 probably not in today\u2019s standards \u2014 healthy foods. And it was like you get a thousand miles for every 10 barcodes you mail in. And he found that he could buy these trial-size pudding cups for 25 cents and they all had their own barcodes. And so he drove hundreds of miles around, filled up a van, bought over 12,000 pudding cups, donated all the pudding cups to local shelters with the requirement that they would need to, as they serve them, give him back all the tops that they peeled off so he could mail them in. And he ended up earning, I can\u2019t remember how many miles it was, it was enough miles that he said he spent seven years burning through them, taking friends around the world, going on amazing trips.<\/p>\n<p>He got to write off the pudding as a donation. His total cost was like $2,500. And so it\u2019s just a great example of learning to spot places where promos or credit card rewards can be pretty lucrative. And so if anyone was around in the mid-2000s, the US government kind of passed some legislation to get this $1 coin in circulation. And so they basically said, \u201cWe\u2019ve got to get this coin in circulation.\u201d And so they basically let you buy dollar coins from the US Mint website for $1 and you could put them on a credit card. And so you would go on and the idea was, coins last longer than bills. And so the government said, \u201cA $1 coin would save us five billion over 30 years,\u201d because it would last, we didn\u2019t have to reprint all these bills. And so they sold $1 coins, shipping included, for $1.<\/p>\n<p>And this one guy, I don\u2019t know his name, bought two and a half million dollars of dollar coins. They weighed like 40,000 plus pounds. And so he would just get these coins to his house and he would throw them in his car, wheelbarrow them to the bank, deposit them as US dollars, and just cycled through earning millions and millions of credit card points buying coins on his card. And so I think that\u2019s an extreme version of points arbitrage.<\/p>\n<p>A lighter version is just, I spend a lot of money on Amazon. I mean let\u2019s not use Amazon because Amazon has a credit card that gives you five percent. But let\u2019s say you spend a lot of money at Apple and you\u2019re at the checkout line at the grocery store and there\u2019s an Apple gift card and you could just buy your Apple gift card at the grocery store, load it up to your Apple account, but because you have a card that earns 4X points on groceries, you get 4X on Apple instead of one because you bought the Apple gift card at the grocery where you get elevated points. And so looking at places where you can move around your spending or buy things that are easy to sell on a card, great options.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So let me throw one out for you just because you may already know this, but I think it\u2019s a fun story even though the conclusion is a little unclear to me. Did you ever hear the story about Kyle Bass, well-known hedge fund manager and his nickel purchase? Did you ever hear about this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>No, I do not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So I just looked it up. Now this is on some random website, so who knows, fact check everything folks, but here it is.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>\u201cIn 2011, hedge fund manager Kyle Bass reportedly bought $1 million worth of nickels. Why on Earth would anyone want to own 20 million nickels? Let\u2019s work out the underlying logic of this trade.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cA nickel weighs five grams, 75 percent of which is copper and the rest is nickel. At the time that Bass bought his nickels, the actual metal content of each coin was worth around 6.8 cents. So Bass was buying 6.8 cents for five cents, or $1.36 million worth of base metals for just $1 million.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>And it goes on, there are a bunch of important points in the fine print here, because he\u2019s not going to want to melt it down himself. Is it even legal for him to do that? Maybe not. So does he have exposure then to the nickel and copper markets? How does it work? But still a neat example of how some of these opportunities seemingly \u2014 and make sure you\u2019re not too clever by half because you can shoot yourself in the foot financially \u2014 but it kind of makes for a fun story.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>The last story was that, and this goes back to my earliest days of buying pizza in college. When we were getting married, we had no idea how expensive things could be at a wedding. And so, this guy was kind of a successful entrepreneur in Silicon Valley, had this amazing wedding video he shared and I was like, \u201cWell that was really cool. I\u2019d love a wedding video like that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I looked at who produced it and I emailed them and they were like, \u201cYeah, we\u2019d love to do your wedding.\u201d I was like, \u201cAwesome, how much is it?\u201d And the woman was, it was $13,000. And I was like, \u201cNo, sorry, I thought a wedding video would be a fun thing to have, but $13,000 was a meaningful portion of our entire wedding budget. I can\u2019t spend this on a wedding.\u201d And I\u2019d been talking to this woman unfortunately for three or four calls before I knew the price and she was like, \u201cAh, but your wedding sounds fun. You\u2019re a cool person, I\u2019d love to do it.\u201d And I was like, \u201cYeah, I don\u2019t know what to tell you.\u201d And I had been talking about our honeymoon and we were going to the Seychelles.<\/p>\n<p>And that was the plan for our honeymoon and she was like, \u201cGosh, it would be fun to do your wedding.\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cMan, I\u2019d love to hear the story of how your honeymoon goes. I\u2019ve always wanted to go to the Seychelles.\u201d And I was like, really? You\u2019ve always wanted to go to the Seychelles? The street price of two business class tickets to the Seychelles is like $20,000. But the actual cost to me in miles is like $2,000. So I offered her, I said, \u201cLook, what if I sent you and your husband to the Seychelles in business class whenever you want to go. We\u2019ll find a time where the flights work. I will book you there. You\u2019ll save $20,000 if you otherwise would\u2019ve bought the ticket, I\u2019ll do it with points. What do you think?\u201d And she was like, \u201cLet\u2019s do it.\u201d And so she agreed to do the wedding. The only cost we had was we paid for the hotel rooms for the videographer because that was a real cost.<\/p>\n<p>But all the time, cost and editing costs she ate. And it turns out at the time she wanted to go, it was harder to find the Seychelles. So we sent her and her husband from Colorado to Mauritius in business class, they had an amazing trip. And so I would say the lesson here is like you can always find ways to negotiate anything. That\u2019s one of my principles.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That might be the golden move that I could apply without inflicting much brain damage. Because I work with dozens of contractors for a million different things. And I could say, \u201cOkay, how about instead of paying you rack rate retail for your services, which is 10k, I send on this trip, which is 15k,\u201d if in fact they want to travel or whatever it is, since that\u2019s going to be seemingly the highest conversion. I could probably do that a handful of times and squeeze a lot more value out of these points than I would for myself over time since I just don\u2019t foresee traveling with a high enough frequency. It would take a long time to kind of drain the bathtub before it\u2019s refilling, so to speak. But if I\u2019m using it also to find opportunities to pay for folks or give them something, I wonder what the tax implications are of that. Who the fuck knows? Yeah. How does that work from a gift tax perspective? Do they get themselves into trouble? I guess that\u2019s a problem for them and their accountants.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I don\u2019t have an answer to that, but I would be very surprised if you bought a flight for someone and \u2014 if you asked your accountant, they might say, \u201cIt seems fine.\u201d I\u2019m not an accountant, I\u2019m not going to tell you what to do. I\u2019m sure someone listening will tell you there are tax implications.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I suppose, well, it\u2019s different from a gift because it\u2019s a barter, effectively. So there are probably specific elements of the tax code that deal with bartering. I have no idea what they are.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>What is the value of the thing you\u2019re giving and all that? Another option though, for anyone who\u2019s a business owner, it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, I could give all my employees a thousand dollar bonus, or I could send them all on a $5,000 vacation that cost me a thousand dollars worth of points.\u201d That employee is going to have this incredible experience. Pick any luxury resort that\u2019s in the Hilton portfolio. Amex transfers one to two to Hilton, 24 million Hilton points, you\u2019re like, \u201cWhere do you want to go on vacation?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s like a gift to employees, to family members. One of the interesting things is you probably have less flexibility in your schedule, but maybe you have family members or friends or nieces or nephews or graduation gifts. I heard this great story, a friend of mine gave his son, for graduation, he\u2019s like, \u201cRight after graduation, you tell me, I\u2019ll send you anywhere you want to go in the month after you graduate.\u201d Well, he had all the flexibility. He didn\u2019t start his job for a month so it didn\u2019t matter what day, didn\u2019t matter what time. And he and his best friend, he flew he and his best friend to Asia. So that was his graduation gift.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>How hard is it to transfer points to someone else, right? I\u2019ve got 12 million points; if I was like, \u201cHere\u2019s a competition \u2014 \u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>You don\u2019t need to. That\u2019s the thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What do you mean I don\u2019t need to?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So you could do two things. You could book a flight in the Amex Portal for anyone. You can transfer those Amex points only to your loyalty account, but you can book it for anyone. So you can transfer those membership rewards to Air Canada and book a flight for anyone in the world on any flight that Air Canada\u2019s partners with. I think Air Canada has the most airline partners of any airline in the world, I think. So Air Canada is a great target for Amex points.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What would you do in my shoes right now? Because we talked about long haul international, we talked about using the different tools that you\u2019ve already outlined for checking for flights, AwardTool, Amex Travel Portal, etc. Talked about getting a Business Gold Card for more advertising. Anything else that is easy for me to do, or have what my assistant in the Philippines help with doing? But if it chews up a few hours of my time, I will probably have an allergic reaction. So is there anything else where you\u2019d be like, \u201cLow hanging fruit, do or don\u2019t do these additional things? Get rid of this card, that\u2019s bullshit, do this, this is hurting you more than helping you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I know on your list you have over a million Capital One points that you\u2019ve earned on after back and forth with you and trying to look at pictures. I still can\u2019t figure out what card it\u2019s earning points on, but it earns just one point on every dollar. So, at a minimum, it\u2019s like, if you just got a two on everything or cash back, I would encourage you to maybe just switch to Bank of America Premium Rewards Card, get 2.6 percent cash back on everything, three and a half percent cash back on travel and dining, stop worrying about these points.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That requires me to have 100k in a bank account there? Or no?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>The most optimal would be open up some brokerage account, throw a hundred grand in treasuries and not worry about it. The easiest would be open up a checking account that earns almost no interest, that would be some opportunity cost. But if that\u2019s even too much for you, it\u2019s like go open the Fidelity card that gets two percent on everything and you don\u2019t have to move money anywhere. There are multiple cards that earn two percent. Capital One has a Spark Cash on the business side and then a Venture Card, which is just 2X points on everything on the personal side.<\/p>\n<p>So there are a lot of options, but for you, and everyone listening. Everyone listening should not be getting less than two points or two percent on any transaction, because you\u2019re just giving money away. Let me caveat, unless you\u2019re in the middle of rebuilding your credit and you\u2019re not eligible for all these cards, caveat one. Caveat two, no amount of the 19 to 29 percent APR that most of these cards are charging is worth any of these points. So we should [rewind]: anyone that\u2019s thinking about optimizing their credit card game, if you can\u2019t pay your balance off in full each month, it\u2019s not worth it. Stop, do not pass go, do not do any of these strategies. If you can\u2019t pay your card off each month, and you have enough credit score to get a card that earns 2X or two percent, that is the floor. Anything earning less than that, it\u2019s too easy to earn two percent or 2X points on everything to have any excuse of doing anything else.<\/p>\n<p>But I might have 30 cards, which is a little insane. The difference between two and 30 is very minor. The difference between one and two is pretty decent. So I would say, finding the two cards that optimize is really the gold standard.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean I just have to give credit again where credit is due, but you\u2019ve turned your obsession\/sport\/optimizer\u2019s curse also into your business. So there is actually much more so than the average duck walking around doing this behind closed doors, an upside to you to experiment, which is what you like doing in the first place. So it\u2019s a very beautiful solution that checks a lot of boxes. So congratulations again on that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I feel lucky that I basically just started recording a day in the life of myself. It\u2019s like, \u201cToday, I\u2019m going to go down the rabbit hole of every card that Citibank has and break down every little feature and why there\u2019s a couple real ways that you could basically earn top tier Citi status, not too difficultly. Great, that\u2019s an episode. Let\u2019s deep dive on gold, let\u2019s deep dive on award travel.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Which is legitimately a day in the life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>That is what I want to do and I get to share it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, it makes me think of, I think in the first episode I did with Chris Sacca a million years ago, investor who\u2019s now a billionaire, crazy story. But fully embracing your weird self. There is a lot to that that we could unpack in a completely separate episode.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Funny enough, the last I saw you was in Austin at the live Diggnation and I saw Chris Sacca there who heard me talking about gold and he was like, \u201cCan I just come with you?\u201d There\u2019s still a part of him that he\u2019s like, even at his level of wealth, he\u2019s like, \u201cDude, I want to do this. I want to go resell gold.\u201d He just like, loves the arbitrage opportunities.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, for sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So there\u2019s something fun about knowing you kind of \u201cgot one\u201d over the system.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. Oh, for sure. What do you think the future looks like here? Any hopes, any expectations? I mean you track, this is not to use this incantation as a catchall for everything, but certainly my frequency of using AI tools has gone up 10X in the last two months alone. And a lot is going to change and I would imagine maybe, just like high-frequency trading and so on affected the investing game and obviously prior to that, a lot of the quant stuff out of places like RenTech and whatever, are the arbitrage opportunities going to vanish with the smoothing over of robots who are attempting to do the same thing that a lot of people are doing semi-manually right now? Do you think there\u2019s going to be a lot of amazing stuff coming? What do you see or hope for when you look into your crystal ball with travel stuff or point stuff?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>There\u2019s a couple tailwinds and a couple of headwinds. So on the tailwind side, one of the challenges with having all of these points is that these programs are always devaluing things all the time. And so there used to be amazing opportunities to do X and now it costs 20 percent more. One of the nice things is that the government kind of is doing some sort of like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to investigate whether airlines are devaluing people\u2019s miles,\u201d and so there\u2019s currently some sort of investigation going on. So I think we are unlikely to see a lot of devaluing coming in the near-ish future because there\u2019s some scrutiny about that. So that\u2019s positive.<\/p>\n<p>There is this Credit Card Competition Act that\u2019s been tried to be passed. The idea being, we didn\u2019t talk about this, but the way all of this is funded is that when you swipe your credit card, there\u2019s a fee that the merchant pays to use your credit card, and that fee gets split between the payment processor like a Stripe or a Square or lots of other ones, the issuer and the network. So Visa, MasterCard is the network. The issuer is your Chase. And so those fees pay for this. In a lot of other countries, that interchange is capped. I think in the EU, it\u2019s capped at .3 percent, and in the US, it can be as high as three percent.<\/p>\n<p>So the Credit Card Competition Act is like, in my personal opinion, a bad attempt at trying to make this better in that \u2014 I\u2019m not going to go into the nuance of what it does, but the senator who created it has tried to attach it to this crypto GENIUS Act that by the time this comes out, maybe we know the fate of it anyways, but there are some people trying to create legislation to bring down the interchange rates, create more competition. If interchange was .3 percent, you would not be earning all these cash back and points on anything. That\u2019s why cards in Europe are much less lucrative, if not completely foreign concept. So if that happens, great.<\/p>\n<p>The reality is it seems like merchants are not going to all of a sudden just drop their prices if their fees go down. We\u2019ve seen multiple cases with tariffs, with other things that that\u2019s not usually the behavior that happens. So that\u2019s on the point side.<\/p>\n<p>I think it\u2019s become a lot easier to use your points with all these tools, and I think AI will make those tools even better. You\u2019ll just be like, \u201cI want to go to Japan,\u201d and it\u2019ll be, \u201cBoop, boop, boop, boop, boop \u2014 based on everything you have, based on everything that\u2019s out there, here\u2019s the optimal way to do it.\u201d On one hand, that\u2019s kind of a bummer for the people who understand the system now. If everyone can understand the system, then those outsized return options are less.<\/p>\n<p>That said, one of the ways that outsized value comes is from still doing things that are like, \u201cI\u2019m not going to look from SF. I might look from the West Coast. I don\u2019t care where I\u2019m going to stay. Find me the best deal.\u201d So I think it\u2019ll be a while before the average person thinks that way. I think the average person, whether an AI tool is doing the searching or not, is like, \u201cI want to go here. How do we go to Paris in June?\u201d Not, \u201cWhat\u2019s a great deal I could get, and I\u2019m willing to buy a ticket to Austin and fly to Paris from Austin if that\u2019s awesome on a separate airline and a separate ticket.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think AI keeps blowing my mind every month. So who knows? Maybe it\u2019ll understand all of this and help us all redeem our points in maybe better ways and maybe this scrutiny will prevent airlines from devaluing and we\u2019ll all win, but I still think there will always be edge cases around how to do it and ways to find the optimal inventory flights that will leave some upside for those of us who spend a little bit more time being ahead of the curve. And I\u2019m glad that it\u2019s easier for more people to do that. It was really hard 10 years ago to get crazy value. Now it\u2019s easier. I think it\u2019ll get a little easier, but I still think there\u2019ll be a lot of upside for people who pay attention to what\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n<p>As for travel in general, I\u2019m not sure what AI\u2019s influence will be on airlines and hotels and all that. I haven\u2019t really thought too deeply about it. It seems like it solves a lot more aspects of my life than leisure travel or even business travel.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Big question mark for me, not the slightest clue, frankly. I\u2019m hoping it can reduce a lot of friction, but how it does that, what the form factor is, how people interact with it, no idea at this point, so TBD.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I was talking to someone and they were like, \u201cOn booking.com, this website said the room had two beds, and on all the other portals, it said it had one, and then I called the hotel and they were like, \u2018We have two.\u2019\u201d Some story like that. The moment you have a travel scenario where AI booked the wrong thing, you\u2019re like, \u201cI would rather just do this myself.\u201d Like get to the airport and the flight was wrong. It was on the wrong day. I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m not going to let an AI book my travel, but I might let it do some exploration.<\/p>\n<p>I do think when it comes to itinerary planning, if anyone is planning a trip anywhere and is not using AI to think about where to go and what to do \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, my, gosh. It\u2019s incredible, unbelievable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>That is incredible. \u201cPlan my 10-day vacation in Japan.\u201d The AI tools for planning trips are just out of this world. So I would use it for inspiration and, \u201cOh, I want a place cold.\u201d \u201cOh, I\u2019m traveling with my kids.\u201d \u201cOh, that\u2019s too much travel.\u201d \u201cOh, can I take a train between these two cities?\u201d That kind of stuff. It\u2019s just so good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s incredibly helpful. Yeah, I used it. I was in Japan, visiting my host family I stayed with when I was 15 actually, so 32 years later, still close, and used it for day planning. Woke up. It\u2019s raining. \u201cOops, can\u2019t go to or won\u2019t go to this particular location. Build me an itinerary with this weather in this radius and then give me a walking tour starting in this location.\u201d For the next day when it\u2019s sunny, I\u2019m going to use that, right? And exploring those two and just ending up with two or three follow-up prompts with an incredible itinerary, literally that would have taken me God knows how long to put together using normal search. It was just incredible. It\u2019s really, really, really, really powerful.<\/p>\n<p>What have we left out, Chris? What should we talk about, any glaring omissions, any \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I\u2019ve got a couple of things. One, there\u2019s some people who are like, \u201cI\u2019m into it. I want to play this game and I want to get the most out of it,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019ve been playing it and I want to level up.\u201d And there are people who are like, \u201cI don\u2019t want to. There\u2019s still got to be something I can do.\u201d And I would say a couple of tricks that I think for people who like to travel that don\u2019t require any amount of points arbitrage, credit card anything is \u2014 one of my favorites \u2014 is if you book your hotel directly with the hotel, which, outside of getting a deal or cashing out points, I would encourage you to book directly with the hotel because they see your profile. They see your name. They see that you have some loyalty. They want to build relationships. Email the hotel after you book and then maybe follow up three or four days before you arrive and just tell them you\u2019re coming. Tell them you\u2019re excited to stay with them. Ask them a question.<\/p>\n<p>I have seen, I don\u2019t know what the percentage, but at least a hundred people have sent me photos of something that\u2019s happened, whether it\u2019s an upgrade, whether they did something really nice in the room for their kid\u2019s birthday. Someone had their initials monogrammed in their pillow, which was kind of a weird thing to do, a bottle of champagne, free drinks at the restaurant. At the end of the day, the hotel game is still a hospitality game, and if you give people a channel by which to build the relationship, I\u2019ve been amazed at the payoffs of doing that.<\/p>\n<p>So if you can\u2019t find the email, ask ChatGPT. If they can\u2019t find it, call the front desk and say, \u201cHey, is there an email for someone at the hotel?\u201d and just say, \u201cHey, I\u2019m coming. I\u2019m excited to stay with you guys. We haven\u2019t been to Italy ever and we\u2019re celebrating my son\u2019s birthday.\u201d You don\u2019t need to ask for anything. Just let them know you\u2019re coming. And I would be surprised if at least every other time you do that, something doesn\u2019t surprise you and the hotel doesn\u2019t find a way to do something nice.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Let me add just two things to that also. When you check in, there\u2019s no harm in asking, \u201cJust out of curiosity, are there any upgrades available?\u201d You can just ask because stuff happens, as you know, all the time, and it doesn\u2019t hurt to ask. And I\u2019ve also had some crazy, crazy upgrades. Nothing to do with my name actually, because I usually book under an alias anyway. Long story. I won\u2019t get into it, but just for privacy and security and bullshit. And the craziest type of upgrades. It\u2019s like if you\u2019re just friendly and they happen to have something that opened up and it\u2019s last minute, I remember at this one hotel, booked a decently nice room, nothing like crazy, super over the top, but it was just chatting them up, having a good time checking in. I was in a good mood, travel was easy, blah, blah, blah.<\/p>\n<p>And then asked if they had an upgrade and ended up getting a penthouse suite, which was the entire floor. Just because they\u2019re like, \u201cWell, it\u2019s kind of like a zero. If we don\u2019t sell it, it\u2019s 5 p.m., and nobody is coming to use this thing.\u201d And was able to have this incredible experience. Invited a bunch of friends over who lived in the same city and it was just outstanding. So it\u2019s like you can also ask.<\/p>\n<p>One last tip. This is for restaurants, and I\u2019ve got a whole bunch of these in <em>The 4-Hour Chef<\/em> for people who are interested, but I used to work in restaurants, right, bussing, waitering, etc., on Long Island mostly, growing up. If you just ask people if they have a two-top or a four-top, like a two-person table or a four-person table, if you use that type of language, very often, you\u2019ll get better service and get upgrades and all sorts of stuff. So that\u2019s another easy one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Love that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It happens a lot too if you sit at the pass, which I love to do anyway, and when I was working on <em>The 4-Hour Chef<\/em>, I would want to sit at the pass. The pass is where the dishes that have been prepared are often put under a heat lamp or they\u2019re put up with their ticket so the servers can come and get them. A lot of restaurants will have a handful of seats that are effectively at the pass so that you can watch what\u2019s happening in the kitchen. And if you specifically request that, which is not a very common request, again, very often, you get much better treatment. So just some ideas. What else do you have?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So I realize someone might be listening to this, thinking, \u201cOkay, Tim has got millions of points. Chris has millions of points. I actually want to take these vacations. I want to go on these trips. I don\u2019t have millions of points \u2014 \u201c<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Make a wedding video for Chris.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah. You spend some money, but you don\u2019t spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, so how do you even end up with this many points if you\u2019re not running a business? I would say one thing that is one of the ways most people I know rack up points, and I\u2019ve got so many stories from listeners who are like, \u201cHey, I just got into this thing and I\u2019ve already been able to take this amazing vacation, this amazing everything.\u201d I could go through a long list of people who are like, \u201cI\u2019m three months in and I just took my wife on this amazing thing that we never got to do on our honeymoon, etc.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>One of the ways that people accelerate the game is whenever you open up a new card, there might be some kind of offer, oh, 100,000 points, 75,000 points. And so while I often say 2X points is a great return on your spend, I will say that if you look at the top, and this I did a couple of months ago, but if you look at the top 15 sign-up bonuses or welcome bonuses right now, earn 75,000 points for spending $5,000, that kind of thing. The average return on spend, valuing the points at just a penny, we\u2019re not even giving the outside \u2014 it\u2019s about 17 percent. So if you open up a new card and they offer you 100,000 points for spending $5,000, right, that\u2019s 20X return on that spend.<\/p>\n<p>And so those new card offers are 10X, maybe in this case, 20X, more lucrative than your regular spending. And so when I tell people that, their first question is like, \u201cOkay, but am I just going to ruin my credit if I open up two or three cards a year?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. That was my next question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>And there\u2019s this great tweet that \u2014 because I haven\u2019t seen someone put this visually, and I will send you a link to it. I don\u2019t know this person, Chad Janis, he\u2019s on Twitter. He opened up this card. He\u2019s like, \u201cMy wife and I opened up 26 cards in 2017. We earned two million points and traveled to 40 countries for free. That year of traveling changed our lives. Most people ask, \u2018What happened to your credit score?\u2019 What do you want to know?\u201d And he showed this chart where his wife, Hannah, her credit score went from 670 to 798, and his went from 794 to 805. So I just want to dispel this myth of opening up a handful of cards totally torching my credit.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>So what I will say is what you don\u2019t want to do, and I should have said this earlier, if you\u2019ve had a card for 20 years and you just realized in this episode that it\u2019s the worst card you\u2019ve ever had and it earns nothing, I wouldn\u2019t go out and cancel it because one of the components of your credit score is the average length of credit history.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So what you don\u2019t want to do is close the card that you\u2019ve had for 20 years. That\u2019s like the anchor in that average. What you could do is just leave it open.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>A question for you. When you cancel \u2014 because I\u2019m glad you said that, because I was like, oh, I\u2019ll kill my Capital One card and hop to whatever. So if I were to close down the Capital One Card, which I\u2019ve definitely had for probably 20 plus years, I think it might have been my first credit card because, long story, believe it or not, I wanted to work at Capital One when I was going to graduate from college. Didn\u2019t get the job. Probably a blessing in disguise, but no offense to Capital One, but they were doing amazing stuff with direct marketing at the time, which was interesting to me.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, if I were to close that, does it remove that entirely from my average, or does it just stop it so that now it\u2019s 20-point whatever years and it\u2019s not going to keep growing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I believe your average age of credit is only looking at the active lines.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, brutal. Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So there are a lot of things that you should not do before \u2014 before you close a credit card, I think there\u2019s three choices you can make. One, if there\u2019s no annual fee, you just leave it open. There\u2019s not a lot of risk. Just leave it open. In the Capital One case, you can product change it to another card more often than not. So you could call Capital One and say, \u201cWhat are my options for this card?\u201d And they might say, \u201cOh, you could move it over to a Venture Card and earn two points per dollar on everything. Would you rather have that card?\u201d And you could just change it to another card that you do want.<\/p>\n<p>Now, the counter to that is if you wanted to get that 75,000, 100,000-point sign-up bonus on a card, you won\u2019t get it when you change cards. So you could be better off just opening that other card up and leaving the Capital One Card there. So if it has no annual fee, you can just leave it there.<\/p>\n<p>My ritual, I would give you two options: one, put one recurring charge that\u2019s small on it and set it to autopay. Put your Spotify subscription. That way, they never close it for inactivity. I have this ritual where around the holidays, I just go through all the old cards and I just make sure I put a charge on each of them. My oldest card was a United card that I got in college, and I didn\u2019t use it for four years and they just closed it, and I was pretty bummed. I could have avoided that.<\/p>\n<p>Or if that charge has an annual fee, you can usually product-change it down.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s say you open the Chase Sapphire Preferred Card. You don\u2019t use it anymore, but it\u2019s your oldest card. You could downgrade it to the Freedom or the Freedom Flex Card; no annual fee, not going to cost you anything. Or if the annual fee is what\u2019s holding you back, you can call the bank and say, \u201cHey, it\u2019s a high annual fee. I\u2019ll keep the card open, but what are you going to do for me?\u201d And sometimes, they might say, \u201cNothing.\u201d Sometimes, they might say, \u201cWell, this year, we\u2019ll waive the annual fee. You don\u2019t have to pay it this year.\u201d You\u2019re kind of kicking the can down the road a little bit, but there have been some great retention offers, just asking if there are anything that they could do for you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Let\u2019s do a retrospective real quickly then on my Amex. So I signed up ages ago, 20 plus years ago for Platinum in part, and this is where AI is going to change things also because, you and I spoke about this, at the time, as I remember it at least, it gave you access to Amex Platinum Concierge, and I used the fuck out of that thing. I had them put together reports. I was like, \u201cI\u2019m considering getting a high-altitude simulation tent,\u201d this was for <em>The 4-Hour Body <\/em>research, \u201cand I want you to look at \u2014 identify the four or five best models.\u201d This is back in the day. This is probably 2008, 2009. And they put together the most excellent, unbelievably good, 10-page Word document and sent it to me.<\/p>\n<p>And so I would use the Concierge service for things like that. I don\u2019t know if it continues to perform at that level because I have other tools at my disposal now, but is the \u2014 I think it\u2019s, what, $175 a year, something like that? It\u2019s probably the annual charge.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>The Platinum Card now I think is $695.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, fuck me. Okay. So it\u2019s $695 a year. All right. Is that worth it, or in what cases is that worth it, or should I just product down to Gold and call it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I would say the concierges have been less lucrative in the recent past than before. And on the personal side, the Personal Platinum, the primary benefit of it is you\u2019ll get a priority pass membership or you can go to Amex Centurion lounges. Priority Pass is like a lounge network at airport lounges. I only use my Amex Platinum Card for flights. My wife and I each have one. Obviously, we could put all our flights on one of them. So I believe that I am able to take the coupon book of perks that the Amex Platinum gives you and get more value than the annual fee.<\/p>\n<p>But I would say knowing you and how many hoops I don\u2019t think you want to jump through, you probably wouldn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>And so the question would be like, \u201cDo I spend enough on flights that holding this card to get elevated points on flights is worth it?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>On the business side, I think you should absolutely keep it because redeeming your points is going to be worth 1.54 cents if you have the Business Platinum versus one cent if you don\u2019t. Just booking flights, no hassle, no searching for availability. Just booking it with Amex Travel, using your points.<\/p>\n<p>On the personal side, I don\u2019t know, I only use my Personal Platinum Card for booking flights, and so you could downgrade it to a Gold Card and not have it drop off your credit.<\/p>\n<p>Another important thing, most business cards don\u2019t show up on your credit report. So if you\u2019ve had a business card for 20 years that you don\u2019t use and it doesn\u2019t show up on your credit report, which, by the way, annualcreditreport.com. It\u2019s not a scammy website. It sounds like a scammy website.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Sounds scammy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>It\u2019s a government-sanctioned website that lets you just check your credit report every week.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Annualcreditreport.com.<strong> <\/strong>Is that your phishing site to steal everyone\u2019s email addresses?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>You can get a free credit report every week from annualcreditreport.com. It\u2019s authorized by the government. You could see what cards are on there. You won\u2019t get your credit score. Most credit cards give you a free credit score. Credit Karma gives you free credit scores. There is a difference between the FICO score, which is a private company that looks at your credit report and comes up with a score, and then the VantageScore, which is an alternative. You can go down my credit report score episode if you want to go down there. But yeah, I would say you could go look, but business cards won\u2019t have an impact when you cancel them because they usually don\u2019t show up on there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So question. Credit score is something I feel like I can wrap my head around. What good is my credit report without a credit score? What are you looking for in that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So your credit report is literally just a list of all the accounts, their status, the recent balance, all that kind of stuff on there. And so I would encourage people to freeze their credit report because it prevents other people from opening up credit in their name. I would remind you that if you\u2019re going to apply for a credit card, you should unfreeze it while you do that or you will most certainly not get approved because they need to access your credit report. But the report is the thing.<\/p>\n<p>What happens is there\u2019s a company called the Fair Isaac Corporation, which is FICO. They basically look at your credit report and then have an algorithm that creates a score that makes it easier for lenders to make decisions off of, so the lender doesn\u2019t have to analyze this multi-page document.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Wow. I wonder what will happen to that with \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So what a person would do with their credit report is just \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014 AI.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>\u2014 does everything on here look good? Is there any credit I don\u2019t recognize? Are there cards open I didn\u2019t know were there? But practically, there\u2019s not a lot you do with your credit report.<\/p>\n<p>Don\u2019t cancel your oldest cards. Open new cards if you see an awesome bonus. For me, 75,000 plus points is a pretty lucrative bonus, so I like that. And you can product change cards. So if you have a card and you don\u2019t really care about earning a new bonus, but you just want to have something different, you can change it around.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>How important is it for long-term marriage stability for both people to be either into or not into all this type of arbitrage?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So I got some flack from someone in a podcast review because they got mad that I referred to my wife as a player, too. They\u2019re like, \u201cWe\u2019re not living in a simulation. This is not a video game.\u201d In the points and miles world, the player terminology is just like standard nomenclature, but it is very common for people to have one person who\u2019s the primary and another person who\u2019s like, \u201cJust tell me which card to use.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And I would say this is a fun game in that one plus one often equals more than two. So when you sign up for a card, you get a bonus. Sometimes you can refer someone; they get the bonus and then you get the bonus for referring them. So I know lots of couples who will both open a card, but one will refer them and they\u2019ll end up with two and a half times as many points because of the referral plus the sign-up. And if there\u2019s a great 100,000 point bonus, two people can have it. They\u2019re completely separate on your credit report because they\u2019re separate people. So playing the game with a partner can be fun.<\/p>\n<p>I will advise you something that I have learned the hard way-ish. Just keep your spouse as informed as they want to be. Sometimes, I\u2019ve had fun conversations with my wife, and she\u2019s like, \u201cIs this the credit card that you opened without talking to me?\u201d I was like, \u201cNo, no, I talked to you about it.\u201d I would say keep them as informed as they want to be. But if you\u2019re open, you don\u2019t need both people to be as involved in the game.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So here\u2019s a maybe overarching question that seems important, and that is, what have you found to contribute to enjoying travel? Because this whole thing seems to hinge on traveling, by and large, some form of travel, and it seems like you get the most bang for the buck if it\u2019s long haul international travel, which means if you don\u2019t enjoy those trips, there are some questions that come up about why you\u2019re playing the game to begin with. Why are you a player?<\/p>\n<p>And maybe it\u2019s for the love of the arbitrage and that\u2019s actually the part that you enjoy more than the redeeming of points. But let\u2019s just say that you\u2019re using the outcome to drive the process rather than simply enjoying the process. What have you learned about enjoying travel, and are you able to enjoy travel once you\u2019re traveling or are you also constantly looking for price arbitrage and getting the most value out of it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I think the bulk of the trip is the cost of the lodging and the cost of the flights. And so once we\u2019re there, I\u2019m not thinking about it that much. I\u2019m just trying to enjoy the place we\u2019re at. And in some ways, we\u2019re about to go to the new Waldorf Astoria in Costa Rica, and in some ways, I\u2019m like, look, the rooms were free. We used six Hilton free night certificates. The flights were free. We used United and American Points. So if we\u2019re going to spend what is probably an overpriced amount of money on food, so be it. Everything else was free. So in some ways, it helps me enjoy the trip even more.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I did decline \u2014 they were like, \u201cDo you want to go on this tour of the rainforest?\u201d You could do it by helicopter and it\u2019s only an extra $9,000. We declined it. I wasn\u2019t so in the moment that I was willing to spend anything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So let me push on that a little bit. It would hurt you psychically to do it, but you could do that. Practically speaking, have you ever had an opportunity to do that before, and when do you think the next opportunity would be? Is that not something, in the interest of a life fully lived, if you can afford it, you\u2019d have to stomach it but you could withstand the financial cost? Why not do that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So I did an episode with Bill Perkins who wrote a book called <em>Die with Zero<\/em>, and so this comes to me very strongly. It was one of my favorite episodes. I think that if there were an experience that I thought was going to really be magical, I would be willing to spend that number of dollars. In this case, it was like, \u201cDo you want to go on a two-hour drive or take the helicopter for $9,000?\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t know. I haven\u2019t been to Costa Rica in 20 years. My wife has never been to Costa Rica. I\u2019m sure it\u2019s also interesting from above, but sometimes driving two hours in another country is also interesting. Stop at a random restaurant on the way.\u201d So it didn\u2019t feel like the experience was so much better. It almost seemed more like, well, if you just don\u2019t want to spend two hours exploring this country. So in that case, I don\u2019t think it would have made sense, but in other cases, if that\u2019s just what it costs to do a thing that I really want to do, I\u2019m okay spending it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What\u2019s the last example of you just paying straight cash, no points, no miles, but splurging on something where you\u2019re like, totally fucking worth it? We\u2019ll do it again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I was talking to someone, and he was like, \u201cWe recently went to the Four Seasons in Lanai,\u201d and he\u2019s like, \u201cit was everything I ever wanted a hotel experience to be. The hotel was perfect.\u201d And he took his kids. We have two kids. And I was like, \u201cThat sounds magical.\u201d I was like, \u201cWe don\u2019t have any plans for spring break.\u201d I was like, \u201cI want to go to the Four Seasons in Lanai.\u201d There\u2019s no points deal for the Four Seasons. They don\u2019t have a loyalty program. There are ways. We have this hotel program on our site where you can get some perks. You can get a free breakfast, but there\u2019s no way to get the price of the hotel covered, other than just cashing your points out and spending money. There\u2019s just no trick.<\/p>\n<p>But something stuck with me, which is like, this is the best experience. It\u2019s everything you ever want a hotel \u2014 I was like, I want to feel that. And so we just paid cash. We just went to the hotel. We paid cash. When we ate meals, we paid cash. Did we use a luxury hotel program to make sure we got certain \u2014 extra bonuses included? Sure. Did we get a hundred dollar property credit? Yeah. But when we went to \u2014 they have a Nobu there. Did we not order what we wanted to eat because we had to pay for it? No. We just spent all the money we wanted. We just decided that this three-night stay at this hotel, we are just going to not worry about the cost and we\u2019re going to do what we want to do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What did that feel like for you? I have so many questions, but just as someone who does that not incredibly frequently, what did that feel like for you guys? Was it like, \u201cWow, it\u2019s so nice not to have that analytical overlay of all the other stuff?\u201d Was it like with every bite you\u2019re just like, \u201cOh, God, getting a slight punch in the testicles?\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>10 years ago it would\u2019ve been a slight punch in the testicles.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Do you have an expense hangover? Did you have an expense hangover where it\u2019s like you got home and you felt like you just did a bender in Vegas and you\u2019re just like, \u201cOh, fuck. It seemed like a good idea at the time.\u201d I\u2019m just wondering how it felt.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I mean, honestly, the takeaway, my wife was like, \u201cWe should do that again. That was great.\u201d We just didn\u2019t think about it. And I will say one of the nicest things about that experience that makes it even better is that hotel, during the time we went they were doing some construction, so they were like, \u201cOh, activities are included.\u201d And you\u2019d be surprised at how many higher-end properties don\u2019t nickel and dime everything. It\u2019s like, \u201cOh, we include free breakfast,\u201d and you could just eat whatever you want. It\u2019s not the Marriott free breakfast where you get a $15 certificate off the meal. And you go to the pool and sunscreen and aloe are just free flowing, you don\u2019t have to buy them at the gift shop. And stuff like that. Your room has bottles of water. In a way, we paid for it at the beginning and so once we got there, most of the expense was covered.<\/p>\n<p>And there\u2019s this book <em>Happy Money<\/em>, and in it, one of the five scientific ways to spend money that make you happier is to prepay for things. It\u2019s like when you paid for this hotel in advance and a lot of this stuff\u2019s included, you don\u2019t even really think about it. And so that was really nice. Do I want every vacation to be as expensive as that vacation? No. Don\u2019t I want every vacation to be that great? Yes. And so it\u2019s a balance. I know that staying at Cap Rocat was a similar experience. If anything, it was maybe even nicer. But we didn\u2019t have the kids. It was a different vacation. And we did do that one with points. So it\u2019s a balance. You can alternate between the two, but I think it\u2019s given us permission to spend, which, learning the art of spending, learning how to spend money as a frugal person is hard. And we could probably have another two-hour conversation about that topic.<\/p>\n<p>And I think I\u2019ve slowly learned how to spend money at levels that are probably still behind the average for someone in my situation. And I think it\u2019s easier to do when the experience is something that I just know there\u2019s not an alternative. It\u2019d be really hard for me to spend $10,000 a person on a flight to Japan in business class because I just know how to get that exact flight, maybe with more constraints, but I know how to get that exact same thing.<\/p>\n<p>But restaurants is a good example. I have no issue going to a restaurant and spending a lot of money on a meal. There\u2019s not a way to do it more optimally. Am I using the right card to get the most points? For sure. I\u2019m optimizing where I can, but I\u2019m not choosing to only go to the restaurant that I could buy a gift card on sale for. If you go all the way back to the beginning, my goal wasn\u2019t to save money because I could just not eat the pizza. My goal was to get the pizza like everyone else and not have to pay for it, or get the best deal for it. So at the end of the day I still operate on the principle I want to do the thing I want to do. I don\u2019t want to sacrifice the quality of life, the quality of the experience. Sometimes you can do it, sometimes you can\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Let\u2019s hop back to Bill Perkins for a second. So you mentioned <em>Die with Zero<\/em>, subtitle, <em>Getting All You Can from Your Money and Your Life<\/em>. And I\u2019ll just give a quick line on it. The question, since I\u2019ll buy you some time, is going to be what most stuck with you or stuck out to you about your conversation with Bill? Very interesting book, I\u2019ve read it and here\u2019s the description. This is diewithzerobook.com: \u201cSo <em>Die with Zero<\/em> by legendary energy trader Bill Perkins details the thought-provoking framework for maximizing net fulfillment over net worth.\u201d And I believe, this is from memory, but that I believe Bill used to work with John Arnold, who\u2019s a fascinating character, there\u2019s a really great interview of John Arnold on Peter Attia\u2019s podcast actually, who was also a legendary energy trader, became America\u2019s youngest billionaire in 2007, at the time. Super genius. But coming back to Bill Perkins, what is the basic premise of the book as you would describe it, and what stuck with you or stuck out to you about that conversation or the book?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>So the biggest principle is we\u2019re all saving money and we usually have this attitude of like, \u201cI\u2019m going to save it and spend it in retirement.\u201d Most people end up not spending as much as they think they will because their bodies can\u2019t do all the things that they once wanted to spend their money on. And lots of people end up with more money than they wanted and we should use that money and we should ideally use it at times of our lives when we can get the most out of it. And there\u2019s a bunch of concepts in there, the concept of memory dividends where it\u2019s like you actually benefit from doing this thing earlier because you can relive the moment, retell the story, share it with the people you went on it, look at the pictures forever. And it was a very light bulb moment for me because I had always been tracking net worth, grow net worth, have more, have more.<\/p>\n<p>And at the end I was like, \u201cOh, I left the interview,\u201d and I was like, \u201cWhy am I doing that?\u201d In fact, we took a trip at the end of the interview, he challenged me to do something and we literally planned a trip right after the interview. We were like, \u201cLet\u2019s just spend the money, let\u2019s go on the thing.\u201d And everything changed. And I was like, \u201cWhy save more?\u201d Obviously if you don\u2019t have any savings, it\u2019s good to save, but if you do have savings, what\u2019s the upside of having more money when you could be using that money now and not looking at the scoreboard?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>And so I think we started thinking if we\u2019ve put aside enough that our savings can grow to what we will need whenever we stop working and there\u2019s this concept of Coast FI or Coast FIRE, which is you could go search and dig into that, then we should really be spending our money \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Wait, wait, wait. Hold on \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Instead of saving it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So Coast FIRE. Now FIRE is the Financial Independence Retire Early, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What is Coast FIRE?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Coast Fire is this idea that I haven\u2019t saved up enough that I could stop working today, but I\u2019ve saved up enough money that I don\u2019t need to contribute to my savings. If you\u2019re 35 and you have $1 million in the bank and you want to work till you\u2019re 60, if you don\u2019t touch that million dollars, it\u2019s probably going to be more than enough for you to retire. So you probably don\u2019t need to keep contributing to your savings, so you can adjust your life so that you can coast into retirement.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I see.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>And maybe that means stop doing the really hard job that pays a ton of money and do the easier job because you don\u2019t need the extra money to contribute to your savings. Or maybe it means stop saving and spend more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Is the underlying, or one of the underlying assumptions there, that that million dollars is invested in a low cost index fund with a basket like the S&amp;P 500, something like that?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, that would be the principle. It\u2019s like my money will grow at some reasonable rate.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What books or thinkers have you found \u2014 if you were going to give people a few books, not many, but a few books, let\u2019s just make them books for the time being, but books that you would give someone to help them develop an aware, a conscious approach to money and also a fulfilling relationship with money, which is not automatically the same thing as the former. Any books come to mind.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I like <em>Happy Money<\/em>, which is a really short read and it\u2019s <em>The Science of Smarter Spending<\/em>. It\u2019s just like five ways you can spend money that actually lead to happiness based on some research. I like Sahil Bloom\u2019s book, <em>The 5 Types of Wealth<\/em>, because it just reminds you that wealth isn\u2019t just about money. So often we get caught up in this world of money is wealth and there\u2019s a lot of things that go into being happy and wealthy and all this stuff that just aren\u2019t money.<\/p>\n<p>Morgan Housel\u2019s got a new book, <em>The Art of Spending Money<\/em>, which I think is going to be interesting based on his past book. Before you mentioned specific money, I was like a lot of the books that I really like thinking about are <em>From Strength to Strength<\/em>, which is an Arthur Brooks book about happiness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s fair. That\u2019s fair. I mean it\u2019s all tied together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I think if you think too much about money, you just lose sight of the fact that money is a tool to help you achieve things. And if you don\u2019t have any, it\u2019s a really important tool, but as you have more, sometimes it just becomes a thing that you focus on way too much. And if you can learn to be happy with whatever you have, you might not need to chase. And that chasing is so toxic. It\u2019s such a challenge for everyone when you\u2019re in that rat race.<\/p>\n<p>And I don\u2019t know, I think, this isn\u2019t a book, but go dig into the Bureau of Labor statistics. Go look at how people actually spend their money. Because I think what you see on Instagram isn\u2019t reality. And so if you base all your assumptions on how people spend their money on data that is not true you might think you\u2019re not in a good place. And then if you go actually look at what does a household with my amount of wealth or income typically spend based on actual data that the US government publishes and gives you for free, you\u2019d be like, \u201cOh, wow. Not everyone in my situation is spending $100,000 on a vacation and chartering jets and all this crazy stuff that I see on the internet.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, totally. I feel like there should be a term, there\u2019s a term called orthorexia, which can be applied to people who are basically unhealthily obsessed with physical fitness or appearance. So \u201cortho,\u201d the same ortho you would find in orthopedics and then \u201crexia,\u201d just like anorexia, so orthorexia. I\u2019m wondering if there\u2019s a term for being unhealthily obsessed with money. I was looking up in Latin, that\u2019s \u201cpecunia,\u201d I think, I\u2019m sure I\u2019m pronouncing that incorrectly, but pecunorexia? There\u2019s got to be a word. There\u2019s got to be a good one. If not, I mean \u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I feel like AI could answer this question fast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>AI will answer that question quickly. I\u2019ll let people play with it. Where do you disagree with say, Bill Perkins? Was there anything that you remain philosophically, not opposed to in a judgmental way, but where you are simply using a different OS in your own mind? Is there anything that hops out?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I mean one of the biggest criticisms that he gets is he has so much money, so it\u2019s easy to be like, \u201cLet\u2019s spend all my money, I have it.\u201d And so I think if there\u2019s one thing that it might be missing, how do you bridge the gap to the stage in your life where <em>Die with Zero<\/em> is not an option? You don\u2019t have a plan yet to get to that point. And so there\u2019s this book that comes out in a couple of months called <em>The Wealth Ladder<\/em> and it\u2019s like these different stages of wealth and what life looks like at each stage and what the priority at that stage is. And I think the criticism I might give is that, <em>The Wealth Ladder<\/em>, you can\u2019t write a book for every stage. And so someone who\u2019s at that first stage of wealth is like they just need to get out of it. They need to have any amount of savings to cushion them from their car breaking down, from some medical emergency, and <em>Die with Zero<\/em> is not a relevant conversation.<\/p>\n<p>And so I think <em>Die with Zero<\/em> is a relevant conversation if you are in a financial situation to save more money than you make and you\u2019ve built up a nest egg and now you can start to think whether the amount of money you\u2019re saving is enough to change what your behavior, but it\u2019s not earlier in your \u2014 it wouldn\u2019t have been that relevant to me 25 years ago.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean brilliant title too, I mean <em>Die with Zero<\/em>. It\u2019s a very provocative position and I found a lot of it to be \u2014 I found myself nodding in agreement with a lot of what was in that book. And I think, I believe in almost any field, I\u2019ve said this before, but it\u2019s like the extremes inform the mean but not vice versa. So you can really glean a lot from what people might consider extreme positions. Have you ever read <em>The Man Who Quit Money<\/em> by Mark Sundeen?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I highly recommend. What is described in the book I wouldn\u2019t model exactly, but it raises a lot of really good questions. Just like after you had Bill on, you got off and you were like, \u201cWait a fucking second, why am I doing X? Let me step back and ask a couple of questions that didn\u2019t even seem necessary to ask.\u201d And this book is quite similar, so I\u2019ll just read a little bit. Mark Sundeen, S-U-N-D-E-E-N is the author, but <em>The Man Who Quit Money<\/em>. And here\u2019s the description. I\u2019ve actually read this book multiple times which says something. Very fun to read, super strange. So here\u2019s the description.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cIn 2000, Daniel Suelo left his life savings, all $30 of it, in a phone booth. He has lived without money and with a newfound sense of freedom and security ever since. <em>The Man Who Quit Money<\/em> is an account of how one man learned to live sanely and happily without earning, receiving, or spending a single cent. Suelo doesn\u2019t pay taxes or accept food stamps or welfare. He lives in caves in the Utah Canyonlands, forages wild foods and gourmet discards. He no longer even carries an ID.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And it goes on and on and on. It\u2019s so extreme, but very eye-opening because it starts to poke at these base assumptions that we have, which we do not realize our assumptions half the time because they\u2019re so present. And it\u2019s a fun read, raises a lot of worthwhile questions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>I think some people think the more you talk about and know about money, the more you think about it. And I\u2019m like, \u201cNope.\u201d I\u2019m very much the passive index investor. It\u2019s like let\u2019s put the money in, let it grow. And we started talking about stuff like let\u2019s focus on either making it or enjoying life and all this stuff. So I try to set most of my finances on pretty autopilot so that I don\u2019t have to think about the money on a day-to-day basis. And that\u2019s not to say it\u2019s not important to know how much you\u2019re spending and what you\u2019re saving, all those things. But it\u2019s not something where I\u2019m logging into a brokerage account every day and doing all that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So let\u2019s pretend that you can\u2019t do <em>All the Hacks<\/em> anymore. Podcasting isn\u2019t a thing, or at least podcasting websites, you cannot play the content game in the way that you\u2019re currently playing it. If you had to start another company or get a job, work in another company of some type, what might you do? So you\u2019ve tried a bunch of different stuff and I appreciate how you think about things very deeply. So if you couldn\u2019t do what you\u2019re currently doing and you couldn\u2019t create a clone of it, you can\u2019t do anything that\u2019s like a close cousin, what might you do? Would be on the shortlist?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>If I couldn\u2019t do this right now, I would probably take every little tiny idea I have and try to build the product to solve the thing with all that AI can do right now. But interestingly, when I ended up at Wealthfront as a product manager, I told people, I was like, I think I could do this job for 40 years. The idea that my job is to go talk to people, consumers, understand their perspectives in a space I care about and just build products to make their lives easier, that was awesome. The idea that we\u2019re just going to build products that simplify something that is complicated for other people so that they can just get on with their day and focus on their life and not get caught up on it. I think if the podcast never happened, I would still happily be in that job.<\/p>\n<p>So I don\u2019t have the kind of ego of \u201cI have to work for myself; I need to go do my own thing.\u201d I think I just like building stuff. And so I\u2019d be building something. I don\u2019t know what that is. And a couple of the ideas I\u2019ve had in the recent past are all kind of tangential to what I\u2019m doing, so they\u2019d feel like a cop-out if I told you, \u201cOh, I just started a blog reviewing financial products,\u201d it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, it\u2019s kind of similar to what I\u2019m already doing.\u201d Or build a future travel agency. We kind of do that on the side. I don\u2019t know what that would be. I think everyone always tells me, \u201cChris, you should go launch a credit card because you have all these opinions.\u201d But I think at the end of the day, the economics to make it work and be competitive just require an immense amount of scale that I don\u2019t know if I have it in me to go do that thing, give up 10 years of your life to go build this crazy thing. I\u2019m not \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Sounds really unpleasant. I mean, what would be the reason to do it? It sounds very uncompelling.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, I don\u2019t know. I feel very much like the Mexican fisherman a little bit where it\u2019s like there was a time in my life and for anyone who doesn\u2019t know this parable, which I\u2019m guessing you\u2019ve referenced in the past \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. Version of it was in <em>The 4-Hour Workweek<\/em>. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah. The idea that this guy\u2019s a happy fisherman living his life, fishing all day, hanging out with his friends, spending time with his family.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Playing guitar with beers at night with his family and friends, yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Exactly. And someone\u2019s trying to convince him to go build a bigger and bigger fish company. And then he is like, \u201cAt the end, what do I do once I\u2019ve done that?\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cWell now you can hang out with your friends and fish and go drink beers.\u201d And he\u2019s like, \u201cThat\u2019s what I\u2019m doing already.\u201d I don\u2019t think I have a thing that\u2019s compelling me to be the business person in that story right now. And until there is, I don\u2019t like forced entrepreneurship, forcing myself to build a thing because it\u2019s what I should do. And I would probably spend a bunch of time playing around with tools and data until I found a thing that pulled me in that direction. And until then I\u2019d happily go find a company working on a problem space that I\u2019m interested in as a product person and just building products in that space.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Amazing. All right, Chris, where can people find what you\u2019re up to? What would you like to point people to?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean I have a podcast. We talk about all these things. Every topic that I probably brushed on, I\u2019ve probably gone deep on. It\u2019s called <em>All the Hacks<\/em>. You can find it anywhere, wherever you\u2019re listening to this. Everything I do is at chrishutchins.com or Allthehacks.com, it\u2019s the same URL. And every week I send a newsletter on Saturday morning that\u2019s just all the stuff I\u2019m finding. Where are points on sale? What routes on certain airlines are going on promos right now? What\u2019s changing? So if you don\u2019t want to go so far down the rabbit hole, but you kind of want to stay in tune of where the deals are, you can sign up at <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/allthehacks.com\">allthehacks.com<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, Chris, thank you very much for the time. I have a copious amount of notes. I\u2019m going to have to sit down and figure out what exactly my next steps are, which I think I have some inkling of. So might have to chat with you again to do post-game analysis a little bit on some of this. But thanks for taking the time, man. I really appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris Hutchins: <\/strong>Yeah, I hope people that are listening can just earn more and make good value out of it and live happier lives. Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, absolutely man. And folks, we will have all links to everything in the show notes as per usual at tim.blog\/podcast. Just search Chris\u2019 name and it\u2019ll be easy enough to find him. And as always, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others but also to yourself. Until next time, thanks for tuning in.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Please enjoy this transcript of my interview with Chris Hutchins, the creator and host of\u00a0All\u202fthe\u202fHacks,\u00a0a podcast that helps people upgrade their life, money, and travel. [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":11258,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[13],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-11257","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growth"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11257","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=11257"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11257\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/11258"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=11257"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=11257"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=11257"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}