{"id":13372,"date":"2026-07-17T00:04:16","date_gmt":"2026-07-17T04:04:16","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-the-random-show-tim-and-kevin-talk-retreats-mortality-ai-predictions-supplements-rock-climbing-at-almost-50-and-not-waiting-for-someday\/"},"modified":"2026-07-17T00:04:16","modified_gmt":"2026-07-17T04:04:16","slug":"the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-the-random-show-tim-and-kevin-talk-retreats-mortality-ai-predictions-supplements-rock-climbing-at-almost-50-and-not-waiting-for-someday","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-the-random-show-tim-and-kevin-talk-retreats-mortality-ai-predictions-supplements-rock-climbing-at-almost-50-and-not-waiting-for-someday\/","title":{"rendered":"The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: The Random Show \u2014 Tim and Kevin Talk Retreats, Mortality, AI Predictions, Supplements, Rock Climbing at (Almost) 50, and Not Waiting for \u201cSomeday\u201d (#875)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Please enjoy this transcript of <a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/07\/16\/the-random-show\/\">another rousing edition of The Random Show<\/a> with my good friend\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.kevinrose.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Kevin Rose<\/a>. We reunite over tequila to talk Zen retreats, learning to rock climb at (almost) 50, mortality and grief, why you should stop saying \u201cone day,\u201d AI predictions , and much more.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/07\/16\/the-random-show\/#:~:text=All%20episodes-,Show%20Notes,-Connect%20with%20Kevin\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Books, people, tools, and resources mentioned in the episode<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/07\/16\/the-random-show-transcript\/#Random-Show-July-2026-legal-conditions\">Legal conditions and copyright information<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"podcast-player\">\n<div class=\"podcast-player-inner-wrap\">\n<p>The Random Show \u2014 Tim and Kevin Talk Retreats, Mortality, AI Predictions, Supplements, Rock Climbing at (Almost) 50, and Not Waiting for Someday<\/p>\n<p><noscript><iframe src=\"https:\/\/www.art19.com\/shows\/58dacbdc-646e-4585-9914-19c3de11d1ba\/episodes\/8b8d6e74-d53a-4209-ab52-398ed0854fea\/embed?type=micro\" style=\"width: 100%; height: 30px; border: 0 none;\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Additional podcast platforms<\/h3>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Listen to this episode on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/875-the-random-show-tim-and-kevin-talk-retreats\/id863897795?i=1000777060486\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/6Ex5HziXckXaGfHcp8AjMz?si=x9VCM3nkTKufkCtRkI8Eew\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/+AAKebvKG5do\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcastaddict.com\/podcast\/2031148#\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Podcast Addict<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/pca.st\/timferriss\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Pocket Casts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castbox.fm\/channel\/id1059468?country=us\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castbox<\/a>,\u00a0<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/music.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLuu6fDad2eJyWPm9dQfuorm2uuYHBZDCB\">YouTube Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/9814f3cc-1dc5-4003-b816-44a8eb6bf666\/the-tim-ferriss-show\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Amazon Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.audible.com\/podcast\/The-Tim-Ferriss-Show\/B08K58QX5W\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Audible<\/a>, or on your favorite podcast platform.<\/strong><\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 2+ hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.<\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>KevKev.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>TimTim. Good to see you, man.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Good to see you. And let\u2019s figure out which one. There we go. Cheers.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Cheers.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right. I know the cool kids are down on alcohol, but every once in a while, I think there\u2019s a place for it.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>There\u2019s a time and place. And this is the time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I think this is the time and the place and I think paying a tax for it the next day is a feature and not a bug.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Are you getting taxed harder on alcohol?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, of course. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Is it getting worse?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Every old bastard.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, I know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s gender neutral, gets taxed as you can process ethanol less and less well over time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But I\u2019m cool with it. I don\u2019t have that much, but today has been hectic.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. I feel like you had a hard day today.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Take a little edge off and people may not like the sound of that. It\u2019s a little antiquated maybe for all the cool ketamine kids. No offense.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Don\u2019t put that shit on me. I try it one time and I get freaking ambassador.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You fuck a goat once and then they call me the goat fucker. You can\u2019t get around it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I still stand by that experience. When you\u2019re doing it in a supervised setting by a medical professional\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, here we go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, I\u2019ve been telling you, you\u2019ve done it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Of course I have.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Okay. So there we go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, yeah, because I wanted to be able to speak from\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I saw you at a party one time and you were just like, \u201cWoo.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s not true. That\u2019s not true.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I\u2019m just kidding.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Still have all my nostrils intact. No ketamine cramps.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I don\u2019t even know what that is. Is that a thing?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s when you use too much.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Way, way, way, way too much.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, yeah, I heard it\u2019s bad on the bladder.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, your bladder can get a little grumpy or a lot grumpy as the case might be.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, I\u2019m good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I\u2019m good. Kevin, random show number 3,479.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. You know what\u2019s crazy, dude? Is I looked up a random show the other day and you had a bit of hair way back in the day.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Way back. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>We were babies.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So much shit has happened.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The only constant I think is, like, maybe like Toaster, who\u2019s barely alive.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Toaster right now, seriously. Toaster was a tiny, tiny little pup who was chewing through the XLR cables.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, my God.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>On your couch in San Francisco way, way, way back in the day. Toaster.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Toaster\u2019s 15. And I\u2019ll tell a quick little story. A week ago I get this call and Darya calls me and she\u2019s like, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to get over to the house. Toaster is shaking violently.\u201d And he\u2019s 15. He\u2019s running into walls and shit. He\u2019s getting up there and his legs are collapsing so he can\u2019t stand up and he couldn\u2019t stand up and he\u2019s shaking violently and I\u2019m just flying over there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I throw him in my car. He\u2019s on my lap, driving to get to this emergency vet as fast as possible and he just sprays shit all over me. Literally, I heard it, I felt his stomach be like, gurgle, gurgle, gurgle.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Here we go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And then like 10 seconds later, I\u2019m not even talking like, \u201cOh, he had a little shit.\u201d No, no, no, no. Shotgun against the car door, the whole thing. And it\u2019s all down my pants.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Poor Toasty.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I know, but you know what\u2019s funny, dude? It\u2019s like I rushed him in and, long story short, he\u2019s okay now.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What was it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>He had gone into the vet the day prior and he was so nervous that he stood for, he had to be there for like a multi-hour blood draw because he was having some other issues and he stood for like six hours straight.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s too long for an old dog.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And dude, he can only stand for like 10 minutes, max. And so he had just overtaxed himself and got like, there\u2019s a syndrome that they can get when they\u2019re, like, super stressed out and all that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Sure. Little Molly\u2019s at it or big Molly. She\u2019s on the floor right here. She\u2019s sleeping. Molly\u2019s 12. Hard to believe.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s crazy. But long story short, he\u2019s okay. But I thought to myself, it\u2019s so weird because when I walked in there and there was shit and literally I\u2019m in tears because I think I\u2019m about to have to put down my dog.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, of course.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And I just thought it\u2019s okay. I\u2019ll do this any day for this dude. When you care about your animals that much, none of that matters. You would do anything for them. You know?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>For sure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And it\u2019s just, just that love. It\u2019s so crazy how much you love these little beasts. It\u2019s insane too. It\u2019s like a kid. It\u2019s like a kid.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s wild to think about if you really sit down and think about it. Some of these super common daily experiences like communing with a dog or pointing and having a dog recognize that you\u2019re pointing, for instance, that\u2019s really rare in the animal kingdom, that recognition of pointing, as just one example. But how unusual it is that we have this\u2014and yes, we have cats. I grew up with four cats and two dogs. I get it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But in particular, dogs as, like, companions, co-hunters, et cetera, the fact that we\u2019ve co-evolved in a sense and sort of co-domesticated also. It\u2019s not necessarily one way, read <em>The Botany of Desire<\/em> by Michael Pollan for more on that, it is incredible. The fact that we\u2019re totally calm having this 60-plus-pound beast with giant fangs on the floor is nuts.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve seen those Instagram posts where it\u2019s like where I was and where I am now today? And they show the wild wolf out in the countryside eating a rabbit and then they show a poodle in a tutu outfit and shit, all dyed up.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>The meme is, \u201cI\u2019m going to go grab some scraps from those weird monkeys. What\u2019s the worst that could happen?\u201d And then it\u2019s like, \u201c10,000 years later, you\u2019re a Chihuahua with a bonnet on.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What else is going on, Kevin? I\u2019ve got a couple things on my list, but we\u2019ve got\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>There\u2019s a lot to talk about.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>There\u2019s a lot to talk about.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>First I\u2019ll say that lately, life has been lifing me. It\u2019s been doing all the things. We lost a dear colleague, Om Malik.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, man, very sad.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Very notorious, just amazing early tech, just creative author.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Brilliant writer. Brilliant thinker. Very sweet guy. The nicest.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The nicest.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And now we lost him within the last week or so.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. He passed away so that was tough. That was really tough. I found out when I was at a retreat. I went to a five-day silent meditation retreat, which is great, but bummer to hear that. But this is the thing that I realized the other day I was thinking about Toaster and Om and other stuff I have going on and my mom getting older and falling and all these things. And in some sense, it\u2019s unavoidable, number one. And number two, I kind of wouldn\u2019t have it any other way. It\u2019s what makes life interesting. When Om passed\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You mean death?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Well, just everything, the chaos of it all. If you can just take a step back and be like, \u201cWell, or I could just be sitting there living a really boring life and nothing could be happening.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When Om passed, what I felt was a severe sense of loss and sorrow and sadness. But I realized that that gap is just love, at the end of the day, because I wouldn\u2019t have it unless I loved this man so much. I cared for this person so much. How lucky am I to have crossed paths with this person, to get to know them.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And you were tied in through True Ventures obviously and prior to that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. But like anyone in general that you lose that you love. When I lost my dad, that is just a gaping hole of love manifested through sorrow and sadness. And once you realize that, it\u2019s like, wow, I had this great father that did all these amazing things with me. And that you can kind of convert that or just be okay with it. Not that you need to change that feeling.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Recognize that it\u2019s a consequence of the love that you have.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s a consequence of the love, the deep love.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. I heard about his passing and I want to give credit where credit is due for a few things. Matt Mullenweg, a mutual friend. He was incredibly close to Om and I\u2019m really grateful to Matt for a few things. One, I mean many things, I could give a long list, but there are a few.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One is he organized a trip to Antarctica. I\u2019ve never been to Antarctica or hadn\u2019t. And on that trip were just a handful of people, including Om. So I got to spend quality time. I mean, trust me, when you\u2019re in Antarctica, you are indoors most of the time. What that means is you\u2019re either trying to sleep in your tent, but it\u2019s going to be during the summer so it\u2019s like a spotlight in your face 24 hours a day. Or you\u2019re in one of these other structures where you\u2019re probably like having wine and junk food, let\u2019s be honest.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And there\u2019s a lot of talking. So we got to hang out and Om was also an avid photographer. And so we got to go to this nearby emperor penguin colony, which was a once in a lifetime experience and you just sit and talk. And if there were going to be any small talk, which there wasn\u2019t going to be with Om or me really for that matter, it all falls away after the first half a day. And then everybody\u2019s kind of psychologically naked.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So I really want to thank Matt for that opportunity to bond with him. I\u2019d spent a lot of time with him, but it was always in these little bits and pieces, not for several days straight where you\u2019re basically like locked in together.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And separately, Matt introduced me to this short blog post by someone who typically writes very long blog posts, Tim Urban, called \u201cThe Tail End.\u201d I don\u2019t know if I ever sent this to you.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>People should know it by <em>Wait But Why<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, <em>Wait But Why<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Fantastic blog.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And \u201cThe Tail End\u201d makes the point among many others that by the time you, I think it\u2019s graduate from high school, let\u2019s assume you\u2019re headed off to college away from your parents. You\u2019ve spent something like 90, 95 percent of the total hours you will ever spend with your parents by the time you graduate from high school. And when you start to visualize that, and Tim Urban\u2019s really good at laying it out visually, it can provoke some really profound changes for me. I mean, just reading that short blog post sent to me by Matt ended up leading to taking my family on these family trips. As awkward and uncomfortable as that was at points, because my family doesn\u2019t really emote much and so you stick us together in the way that I was together with Om and it can be super uncomfortable. But making the effort, at least feeling like, look, this runway is not infinite and it\u2019s like, let me just make the effort. And I\u2019m glad I did because we got to a point where it\u2019s like with my dad\u2019s mobility, he\u2019s really compromised and needs a wheelchair now for a lot and\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I just saw him a few days ago and it was great to see him, dude. It was so great to see him. He\u2019s so kind. He\u2019s like, \u201cKevin,\u201d so happy. And he had a little cane and it was just like so sweet to see him, man. I hadn\u2019t seen him for years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Long time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It had been like seven years or something like that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, something like that. And I\u2019m glad I took those trips because before you know it, you can\u2019t do it anymore. And it makes me think of, you mentioned meditation, this really good short, I\u2019ll call it a meditation for simplicity, but it\u2019s like an audiobook chapter by Sam Harris called \u201cThe Last Time.\u201d I think it\u2019s called \u201cThe Last Time,\u201d and he reflects on these various experiences that, at the time, you don\u2019t recognize are the last time for something. So he went skiing, he went skiing, he went skiing, and there was a time when he stopped, but he didn\u2019t realize that was going to be the last time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You don\u2019t know. Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And you just fucking don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Do you ever try, I think about this dude and then I try and do it one more time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s how I always end up injured.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Dude, I went to the bouncy house with my kids and like I\u2019m 49 and I was like, \u201cI\u2019m going to fucking do a flip right now.\u201d And literally people were like, \u201cDon\u2019t do it. Don\u2019t,\u201d calling me off. And I did it and I stuck it, and it felt good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You\u2019re good on a trampoline.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It might be my last time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It might be your last time. You are good on a trampoline. This is so weird, man. Dude, I kid you not. I had a dream last night of the two of us going to House of Air at Crissy Field in San Francisco and you were doing front flips off your knees.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I can do that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You dropped your hat and then you kicked the trampoline to bounce it back up to your head. And I was like, \u201cWhat?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Wait, wait, wait, wait. So you know I sent you that video of me dropping my hat and kicking it back on my head.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I\u2019ve seen you do it live, too.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So it just made its way into the dream.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And I was just like, \u201cWhat?\u201d I literally had that in my dreams last night. That\u2019s wild.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And I have the assless chaps on like I normally do in your \u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, you had the assless chaps on, which, depending on your angle, can be kind of awkward.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, yeah, exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Because you like doing the straddle flip. You like doing the straddle flip. So it\u2019s a little awkward, but \u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I\u2019ve heard about these dreams before. I know how they go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I always text them to Kevin. I\u2019m like, \u201cI was thinking of you last night.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The chaps were back.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So what do you got, man? My hands are too sweaty, because I\u2019m thinking about death.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Chaps.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, and the chaps. Wow, that was perfect audio.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Well, the retreat was fantastic. I spent five days going really deep on my koan doing a lot of work on it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Mu.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Mu. Which you can listen to Henry Shukman on your podcast if people are interested about what Zen is all about, like real true traditional Zen with koans. And you\u2019ve probably heard the sound of one hand clapping that actually is one of 500-plus koans.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah, it was fantastic. I had a couple little micro insights, which was good and I was kind of rushed through to the Zen master to explain them and try and get some clarity on them, which is great.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>How do you know that you\u2019re having a micro insight? So it\u2019s not like my balls are chafing in this position, it\u2019s something else.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yes, it\u2019s not that, but close. No, I essentially was sitting and Henry, one of the Zen masters that you\u2019ve had on the show, a dear friend of ours, was there and then his roshi from Japan was there. So it was very special. He only comes every two years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What\u2019s his name? Yamada Roshi?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose:<\/strong> Yeah. Yamada Ryoun Roshi. Yeah. So basically I kind of pulled Henry aside, you\u2019re not supposed to, he\u2019s not talking, but he\u2019s like, \u201cHow\u2019s it going like this and that?\u201d And I was like, \u201cWell, I had this thing happen, what do you think about this?\u201d And he\u2019s like, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201cCome with me right now.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Well, not come with me, but he got me right in front because there\u2019s a line to see the roshi to go have your private interview where you go and check your practice with them. So it\u2019s behind closed doors, you go in, you sit down with the roshi, you typically get between two and 10 minutes to sit down and talk about your progress on your practice and you do that like once every day and a half when you\u2019re out there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And this was enough to where Henry was like, \u201cYou should go talk to him right away.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Skip the line. TSA pre-check.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Go to the pre-check. And it was beautiful and it was a micro little thing. I can share it if you\u2019re curious.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, of course I\u2019m curious.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. So there was this sense, I\u2019m sitting there\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I get bored of hearing myself talking. That\u2019s why I\u2019m here, to talk to you.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I\u2019m sitting here staring against the wall because in Zen you stare against the wall with your eyes open and you\u2019re staring about three quarters down and kind of just glancing on. I\u2019m working on my koan and for people that don\u2019t know how you do that is essentially on the out breath, you just like slowly internally say your koan. It\u2019s almost like a mantra in some sense but a little bit more involved.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Confounding.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s like a question you\u2019re kind of asking yourself slowly that doesn\u2019t make sense and eventually it pops. But what happened is I had about two seconds of this sense that there was, and this is going to be hard to explain because it\u2019s not from the world of thought, which is already hard to explain.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s like a sneeze in the perineum.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No. No.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right. Close.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I had a sense of nothing lacking.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That sounds nice.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Nothing needed to be added and nothing even possibly could be added and nothing possibly could be taken away because everything at that moment was full in the way that it should be. But what was interesting about it is it wasn\u2019t an emotion. It was just like a steady state of being. So it wasn\u2019t like, \u201cOh, I feel free right now.\u201d No, none of that. It was just like, \u201cOh, everything is here, perfectly present.\u201d And it was just wild.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Wild in what sense? In the felt sense of that experience or realization?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Wild in the sense that \u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Wild in the, I just drank too much tequila after not having much tequila sense?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, I haven\u2019t had any tequila, but \u2014in the sense that we oftentimes so often go outside or inside, into our brain to try and find something, figure something out, an emotional state that\u2019s either bothering you or feels good or feels bad or something else. And then just to know that everything and I don\u2019t mean objects, everything was one unit of nothing lacking and it was just a micro sense of kind of like, \u201cOh, there\u2019s actually nothing to do because everything\u2019s already here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And they talk about this in Zen a bit where you\u2019re actually not, you already have everything that you need. So it\u2019s just they call it the removal of the veil. It\u2019s an expansive awareness that you get from a deep continued practice over years and decades, but it was already there all along.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Can I give a shameless plug?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, let\u2019s hear it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right. So you and I are both involved with The Way, which is this guided single path meditation app, which is guided by Henry Shukman, who you mentioned. And it\u2019s the progressive development of skills on a single path, which I really like as opposed to just what is the meditation du jour with no coherence.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And a few of my favorite meditations, I have a lot of different sessions bookmarked and I\u2019ve done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. And by the way, for people who are like, \u201cOh, these guys are just shilling their bags.\u201d I do think it can be a good business, but this is sort of an ideologically philosophical investment of time and money.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s the reason we invested in the dog aging study with rapamycin.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. University of Washington, it\u2019s like, \u201cThis needs to exist.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>These exist.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s good for the world. Let\u2019s try it. So sure, we\u2019ve got some chips on the table, but this is mostly because we believe in it. And a few of my favorites, if people ever try it, \u201c[The] Whole Earth is Medicine\u201d is one.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s a good one.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Another one is \u201cThis Too is Me,\u201d which makes me think about what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So \u201cThis Too is Me\u201d is a meditation led by Henry, which this is going to sound maybe esoteric, but it\u2019s not. When you recognize that all of the things you experience are mediated by your mind. And therefore when you hear something, when you feel something, when you\u2019re interrupted by something, et cetera, et cetera, anything you can possibly imagine experiencing is also you, because ultimately it is entirely mediated by your mind. Let\u2019s just use that instead of brain.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And it\u2019s incredibly, at least for me, and I\u2019m not comparing it to your experience because I think it\u2019s probably characteristically different, is incredibly relaxing to let go even just for a moment because my brain is like the ultimate dog chasing a squirrel kind of brain. I\u2019m always looking for something to fix, something to improve, what I need to do, what is happening next week and meditation is\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You are the squirrel.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I am the squirrel. You\u2019re right. It can be excruciatingly painful. Meditation can be super hard.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. 100 percent. That\u2019s a very common thing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Super, super hard.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>People are like, \u201cI can\u2019t do this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>But when Henry gives you permission to include all of that as you, I know this might sound very bizarre, it allows you to kind of drop this burden that you didn\u2019t realize you were carrying. So in any case, you don\u2019t have to do a week-long meditation retreat. If you\u2019re just doing 10 minutes twice a day and I do think there\u2019s some alchemy to twice a day. I don\u2019t know why exactly. I have some theories around vagus nerve stimulation and stuff, but you get a lot out of it. In any case, I didn\u2019t mean to interrupt your story.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, I think there\u2019s two things that I love that Henry says quite often when he starts some of these meditations, which is, \u201cTake everything that you came in the door with, all of the thoughts, worries, emotions, things, and leave it at the door just for now. You can come back to it in 20 minutes, but just for now.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The permission to set those things down for yourself just for now is such a beautiful thing. And then like the little instructions where he\u2019s like, \u201cDrop your jaw an eighth of an inch.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I\u2019m like, \u201cWhoa, I didn\u2019t even realize I was clenching my jaw.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Can I tell you something crazy about that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right. So I got fitted for a mandibular device, which is a fancy way of saying a double decker mouthpiece that is an easier approach to resolving sleep apnea or snoring. So I don\u2019t snore a ton, but every once in a while I do, it drives my lady insane, understandably. And if you take the jaw and drop it down an eighth of an inch and forward an eighth of an inch, you open your airway.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I was thinking about that because Henry will often say, as you\u2019re alluding to, drop your jaw and leave it forward as if it\u2019s resting on a small pillow ever so slightly and it increases your airflow. These ancients hit on some stuff by trial and error that really just works. It\u2019s like, yeah, if you want to have better respiration while you\u2019re meditating and better alignment and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just do what Henry\u2019s describing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I will say his dulcet British tones. If you just want a relaxing voice that will help you with chilling the fuck out when your monkey mind is ricocheting inside your skull, try Henry out. You can find free stuff everywhere. I\u2019ve had him on the podcast a bunch as well as Meditation Mondays for a while, which were these very short episodes of guided meditations. In any case.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I\u2019ve been so\u2014what\u2019s the right word? I mean, overjoyed sounds too dramatic, but I\u2019ll just say happy for you to watch your path with meditation because it seems like you get so much nourishment and grounding from it and no offense\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Here it comes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014you\u2019re kind of a spaz. You\u2019re kind of spaz. You get excited about shit and then you drop stuff that is very well exemplified and you\u2019re like, \u201cTim, you got to buy this stock,\u201d and then you never tell me when you sell. And I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, fuck, I\u2019m fucked.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, you want to talk about\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Hold on, hold on. No, no, no.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Okay, because you gave me a real winner.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You lost [REDACTED]. You lost [REDACTED].<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You should have held. It\u2019s fine. But anyway, the\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Literally, Tim gives me this tip and I\u2019m like, \u201cAll right, I\u2019m in.\u201d And then a day and a half later, I\u2019m down like [REDACTED].<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I know, that\u2019s why you\u2019ve got to wait. But the point of the story is I thought, I was at a meditation thing, just like every nine months you\u2019re like, \u201cI\u2019m moving to Android.\u201d And then I\u2019m like, \u201cLet me start the timer for two weeks before you come back to iPhone.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Week and a half maybe, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah, this meditation thing. Yeah, sure. We\u2019ll see. I give it two weeks.\u201d And you\u2019ve stuck with it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Coming up on five years now.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s really made me happy as your friend to see something that gives you that consistency. That\u2019s it. There\u2019s nothing more to add. I\u2019ve been really\u2014what\u2019s the right word? I\u2019m not sure of the right way to put it. I\u2019ve just been very reassured by you having that constant in your life.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>One of the things I\u2019m curious about, speaking of constants and kind of like how things changed since we\u2019ve known each other and you had hair and all that other shit. My hair wasn\u2019t great.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Still got plenty of hair, just not on my head.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. Those braids down there. The question I\u2019m curious about is I\u2019ve been thinking a lot lately as I kind of march towards 50, what are the things that I\u2019ve always said that I want to do that I\u2019m just like, I\u2019ve got a thousand book marks on Instagram, like all these Japanese woodworking things, and like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s always woodworking. It\u2019s always woodworking.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>This is how bad my \u2014 Speaking of the monkey mind and bouncing around, I literally have, for some reason, the algorithm has now given me those motherfucking boats inside of bottles, like people making the boats in the bottles. I\u2019m like, \u201cAm I going to be a boat in the bottle guy?\u201d I don\u2019t know, maybe.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I realize now, I think these next couple decades, I want to stop bullshitting myself and stop saying like, \u201cHey, one day. One day I\u2019ll get into Japanese woodworking. One day I\u2019ll do this.\u201d And really start doing some things.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And you\u2019ve been really good because you archery, hunting, like the stuff that you\u2019ve gotten into, you\u2019ve gone deep on in the last few years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, super deep.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Are there any things that are on your kind of bucket list of things where you say, \u201cOne day.\u201d You\u2019re busy with your podcast and all the other shit you got going on?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, podcast, shoot me in the head. It\u2019s fine and it\u2019s fun most of the time, but it\u2019s so crowded and it\u2019s like, man, if 20 other people are trying to do the same job, I don\u2019t want to do this job.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It is wild how many new podcasters there are out there. And they\u2019re also optimizing every little freaking thing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All the thumbnails.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>All the thumbnails.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What you need to know before your crypto crashes next week, now. And I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, God,\u201d I just don\u2019t want to play that game. And for me, I would say the most top of mind is rock climbing, actually.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, really?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I just did some outdoor rock climbing a couple of days ago and I love rock climbing. I was always, for at least the last 15 years, limited by my right elbow, which I had surgically repaired so it\u2019s ready to go and I want to do some multi-pitch stuff in Yosemite.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Dude, let\u2019s go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So I don\u2019t know if I want to say this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right, that\u2019s a good start.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So you know who\u2019s a big rock climber is [REDACTED].<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, he\u2019s very well-built for it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>He goes out to Yosemite, I\u2019m sure. We should go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Because he\u2019s invited me to go up there and do some climbing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I\u2019m sure he\u2019s good. He looks like someone who would be good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Apparently he\u2019s amazing. And I\u2019m like, \u201cDude, I can\u2019t go do multi-pitch with you at Yosemite.\u201d And he\u2019s like, \u201cAh, just come out, we\u2019ll have fun, blah, blah, blah.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, that\u2019s how you end up fucked.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Exactly, exactly. I did multi-pitch when I was like 24 and it was like three pitches. I didn\u2019t do Yosemite.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, no, that\u2019s a commitment. So the idea of having something like that, to strive for. Having some type of physical goal like that for me is very helpful because just not dying, like training to not die sooner than is necessary is not sufficient for me. I\u2019m just like, that\u2019s such a depressing, uninvigorating goal. I\u2019d much rather have something that has a deadline. It\u2019s like, all right, you need to be able to do x. In the case of the archery, it\u2019s like Lancaster Classic, here\u2019s the date. You need to do this type of training and this type of volume with this type of deliberate practice in order to be prepared to train and then compete. Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Similarly, for something like a multi-pitch, it\u2019s like, okay, you can break that down. And I just enjoy doing that stuff.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Dude, so let me ask you a question. The number two, I don\u2019t know if you saw this on my story list. The number two story I had was this guy Michael Eckert. Do you know who he is?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Tell me. No, no idea.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, my God. Okay. So Huberman and Rogan and all these guys, they\u2019ve talked about him publicly, about this guy. He has won multiple pull-up world championships. And dude, when you watch him do a pull-up, he\u2019s kind of one of those guys that can bring the bar all the way down and does the [crosstalk] style.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>The typewriter and all that stuff.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. You know where you can walk with your feet and shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All the calisthenic stuff. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. But he has a series of videos that teach you how to do finger strength training. And I bought his course and I\u2019m doing this right now. But you got me into that wooden device.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>The Nug.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The Nug. So dude, you got to watch his videos. They\u2019re amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay. All right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Seriously, Joe\u2019s really into them. This guy, his name is Michael Eckert. You can find him on Instagram, and it\u2019s all about grip strength, pull-ups. And he\u2019s not big, but he\u2019s shredded. And when I think about the next 10 years, I don\u2019t need to be big, big.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s probably not what you want.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s probably not.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Especially for rock climbing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. I mean, you need to be lean and strong. And that\u2019s what I love about this. I\u2019m doing these every single day. Well, I\u2019m two days in. I\u2019m getting into it. Tell us about The Nug, because that was something that you turned me onto.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, The Nug, I mean, I have it in my suitcase at the hotel here. It\u2019s just a simple little wooden device. It looks like a very large bar of soap with these different indentations carved into the sides.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Like little finger indentations.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. So you can use a carabiner to connect it to, say, a cable machine of some type in any gym. Look, you could use a loading pin and all this, that, and the other thing on a daisy chain, but let\u2019s put that aside. At a gym, you could use a cable and connect it through the loop with a carabiner, and work on your hand strength.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And you brought this to Santa Fe when we were out there doing the meditation thing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I did. Yeah. I mean, it\u2019s literally\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It travels probably so easy.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Something small enough to slip into my sweatshirt pocket. So it\u2019s easy to travel with. I always travel with that and a band for multiple purposes, for something called DNS kind of core exercises.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, yeah, I know DNS.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. So I use a band for that, and it\u2019s incredibly easy to travel with. And then a handful of other things. There\u2019s something called an Alpha Ball, which I use for different types of kind of mobility. It\u2019s the size of a very large soft softball. And all this stuff fits into the corner of a suitcase. And then I\u2019ll do also something that maybe we haven\u2019t talked about, called Abrahangs, which so Abrahamsson, Emil Abrahamsson, very well known rock climber on YouTube and Abrahangs\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I\u2019m writing this down right now. Abrahangs.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, Abrahangs are pretty simple. I mean, it\u2019s partial body weight hangs in different positions for 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off, for 10 minutes. And you do that twice a day, and it\u2019s very, very moderate in intensity.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>With like a wooden kind of rock climbing kind of like type thing?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, you could use a hangboard.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Hangboard, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I mean, you could also use a pull up bar depending on how you position your hands. And that\u2019s what I was doing in Santa Fe, was that kind of stuff, 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off. And the endurance and strength gains that you get in your hands are just insane. I should say your lower arms, and it really helps. So I\u2019ve been doing indoor climbing, but ultimately I\u2019m like, you know what? As a stretch goal, multi-pitch outdoor Yosemite, that just\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And I am deadly terrified of heights, deadly. Just talking. If you just look at my hands, I\u2019m sweaty just talking about heights.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>When I watch <em>Free Solo<\/em>, my hands are sweating the entire time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>For people who haven\u2019t seen the documentary, even if you\u2019re not into rock climbing, that is amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, watch <em>Free Solo<\/em>. It\u2019ll freak you out. So that\u2019s one that I\u2019m thinking about going deep on. I\u2019d say that\u2019s very high up on the list, because\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome dude. Let\u2019s do that together. I\u2019m totally down. I\u2019m into it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I am totally into it. I mean, the rock climbing when approached in a reasonable way, like a systematic, reasonable way, not with crazy dyno movements on bouldering, necessarily. I mean, look, younger bodies can handle it, certain bodies can handle it. My body, not so much. I do not want to fall repeatedly from 10, 15 feet up. I\u2019m just not into it. So in the case of doing it reasonably though, for instance, I spent a bunch of time, I\u2019ve spent a lot of time in Utah, and climbing in some of the Salt Lake City indoor gyms, you have incredible athletes. And I\u2019ll make that a little finer tuned. When I would go to the gym, it was generally like 11:00 a.m.? Who the hell goes to the rock climbing gym at 11:00 a.m. on a weekday? These are retirees and moms. So you would see, for instance, these like 60, 70, 75, almost 80-year-olds who were doing like 5.11 plus.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, shit. This is when you were single, so that was like, prime hunting.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. Cougarville. And you would just see these people in their 60s and 70s doing things that I could not even imagine doing, with complete inversion on overhangs.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, yeah. I\u2019ve seen this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>60, 70 feet up. You had the national speed climbing team, you had Olympians. But more than like the young guns, the 15 year olds who are doing all this crazy stuff because they\u2019re impervious, it was the people in their 60s and 70s who were climbing every day that inspired me to want to take this more seriously. So I was like, \u201cOkay, I want to play the long game here. What can I do that\u2019s fun?\u201d It\u2019s a puzzle. There\u2019s a lot of Tetris.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>They\u2019d literally call bouldering, they call them problems.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, problems. Yeah, exactly. And so there\u2019s a lot of brain power involved, and also it\u2019s just to give an idea of the technicality, I mean, there are, for example, women who cannot do five pull-ups, who can climb 5.13, 5.14. That\u2019s very, very, very, very, very hard just for people who have no reference point, like world-class, like 5.14, 5.15, insane, insane. That\u2019s when you\u2019re in the magazines.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, 100 percent.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And it\u2019s because of the technical depthness. Yeah, there\u2019s like ape index and other physiological factors that play into it, but that is a very long answer to your question of what I\u2019m thinking about now, which is rock climbing.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> The archery was great and the competition was fantastic. I love competing. However, archery is, by definition, incredibly solitary. You\u2019re just by yourself doing the same thing over and over and over again thousands of times, and I\u2019ve had enough of that in my life. I\u2019ve hit my quota. I want to hang out with other people. I want to have\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Climbing is super social, because you\u2019ll sit there and if neither of you can do it, you\u2019ll be like, \u201cWhat if you put your foot in like that, and kind of lunged up that way and stretched?\u201d You know what I mean?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And then you can ask other people for tips, like beta. Like, \u201cHey, can you give me some beta on this?\u201d It\u2019s fun. It\u2019s really fun. I just love it. I wanted to mention something, if people haven\u2019t read it, <em>The Blade Itself<\/em>, which is a series, it\u2019s not very long. I think it\u2019s two or three volumes by Joe Abercrombie. It\u2019s fantasy novels. They\u2019re really good. The audiobooks are incredible. And the reason I thought of this, <em>The Blade Itself<\/em>, is because of our conversation around Om and Toaster, and a friend of mine just died in a plane crash\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Jesus.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>A couple weeks ago, not even two weeks, less than two weeks ago.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The NetJets one that went\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You knew him?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, Josh.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, God, that was at latitude too.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I know. I know. I know. So you just don\u2019t know when your time is up. And in <em>The Blade Itself<\/em>, I mean there are a lot of various like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Sorry, that sucks.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, thanks. And we weren\u2019t super close friends, but certainly friendly acquaintances. It wouldn\u2019t be strange to text and you just don\u2019t know when your time is up and <em>The Blade Itself<\/em> explores this in a million different dimensions. It\u2019s really, really outstanding. I say that as someone who\u2019s read a lot of fantasy and it just talks about the randomness of life or death in war. It\u2019s like you happen to squat down, take a, and the guy next to you gets an arrow through the head.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, totally.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s just dumb luck, which is a way to, I suppose, reiterate the gratitude piece that you were mentioning earlier. I mean, that\u2019s going to be a tough act to follow, but where do you want to go from that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean a few things. Let\u2019s change it up to, well, let\u2019s just go straight into working out. Have you tried this?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I have actually. It\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Okay. I really like it. So for people that are on audio, I just got turned onto this new protein called Pioneer Pastures and it\u2019s 30 grams in this little tiny shake. It\u2019s A2. So it has lactose removed and it\u2019s also from that special genetic cow. Do you know more about the A2? Can you speak to it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I\u2019ve heard about the A2. I don\u2019t know a whole lot about it. It\u2019s like the Holstein and some other cow and da, da, da, da, da. Apparently, more people tolerate A2 better than not.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I don\u2019t get any stomach issues or anything with this type of whey protein. Anyway, I\u2019m not an investor or any shit like that. You can get it at Target or whatever. It\u2019s tasty as hell and it\u2019s 30 grams and I don\u2019t know. If you\u2019re trying to put a little muscle mass on\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I love that this is next to the LALO tequila.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. I mean, you could mix them if you want.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Everything a growing boy needs.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Anyway, I just wanted to know if you had tried it because we always, this is The Random Show, we do random shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I tried it. Yeah, I tried it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You like it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I do. Yeah. There\u2019s a gym, I can\u2019t remember exactly. I think it was Brooklyn Barbell Club where they sold this and I tried it then and I did. Yeah, tolerated it super well. Didn\u2019t get the grumpy guts as one might when they\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>What\u2019s your favorite protein, out of curiosity?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I mean, my protein, I mean, this is a softball pitch, but funny you should ask, Kevin. And look, I\u2019m involved with this one, but you know what? I always disclose, have you noticed how few fucking people disclose what they\u2019re involved with? They\u2019re like, \u201cYeah, I\u2019ve heard of this great thing. Oh, my God.\u201d And they never disclose they\u2019re involved. The fact that I\u2019m involved\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You can literally go to jail for that shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, I know. But the FTC doesn\u2019t enforce that stuff. Anyway, I mean, right now I\u2019m traveling with Maui Nui as usual. This one though is kind of interesting. I probably get 40 percent of my protein from Maui Nui venison. This is wild harvested axis deer from Hawaii. There\u2019s a long story there, but incredibly nutrient dense.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I love this shit and this is not an ad, but I do have a hard question for you, like a real hard question. This is how you know that it\u2019s not an ad, because you have no idea what I\u2019m about to say.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Let\u2019s hear it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Processed meat nitrates linked to a lot of cancer and bad shit. What are your thoughts on that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>This is very, very, very minimally processed. So you can get summer sausage or the sticks. This is free of most of that bullshit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>What do you think that is? Because it is real. People that eat more like, nitrate processed, ultra processed meats\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. If it\u2019s ultra processed and the shelf life is like three years, I would raise an eyebrow and probably hit pause. So the fact of the matter is most of this stuff that is minimally processed almost definitionally is not going to last very long on the shelf.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>What do they mean by minimally processed when you see a meat stick? What do you think about that versus\u2014 Is it the amount of salt content that creates the nitrates? What\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, it\u2019s actually, nitrates are totally separate categories. So you\u2019re looking to\u2014 I mean, I think an easy heuristic for this is just shelf life. How long will this last?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>How long are those good for?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Your eyes are going to be better than mine. If you can read this size two font on this, then you can tell me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, let me look at that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Give it a go. And I\u2019ll buy you some time. In the meantime\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>27 years. No, I\u2019m just kidding.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>25 years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It doesn\u2019t say on here.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019ll stay somewhere on the box. There we go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, \u201927.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Best by. Yeah, \u201927. So it\u2019s like less than one year, I think, actually looking at it here.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, so\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Less than one year. Wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And what makes this interesting is that this I give also, Molly looks really good for 12 years. I give her probably two or three of these a week. The way I think of this, this is Peppered 10, so there are a bunch of these different sticks. Every professional team you can imagine uses these things in their training, but this is made with wild harvested venison liver and heart. So it has some organ meat in it. You do not taste that. It just tastes like regular jerky stick, but I treat this like a multivitamin. So it\u2019s like I take, let\u2019s call it two or three of these a week and limit it to that and then the rest of the time I\u2019m taking their other either peppered or regular sticks.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But this is when I\u2019m on the go, I mean, literally this was in my bag when I got here. When I\u2019m on the go, I\u2019m traveling with this, probably some nuts of some type like pistachios or whatever. Walnuts are pretty good for a host of reasons and that\u2019s about it. I mean, I might have a couple of servings of exogenous ketones, but I haven\u2019t taken that stuff in a couple of months.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You told me, you freaked me out, it messes up your liver.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>This is a controversial topic. So yeah, there are certain exogenous ketones that contain something called 1,3-Butanediol. It\u2019s very common and there\u2019s a lot of debate around this. So the jury is still out, but some people believe that that can produce liver toxicity. So I consume anything with 1,3-Butanediol in moderation. Now, to play not devil\u2019s advocate, but to do a counterpoint, a lot of the people who are putting forth that hypothesis or claiming that\u2019s true are selling their own ketone salts. So they\u2019re actually selling a competitive product.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I see. I see.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So question mark, question mark. But I mean, look, you can look at the peer reviewed literature and decide for yourself. What I have decided personally is that you should use the exogenous ketones very intermittently. I have experimented a lot with every type of exogenous ketone you can imagine and\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I mean, you got me on that good. It\u2019s expensive as hell, but like that stuff goes straight to your head. The one that you didn\u2019t want to talk\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, Delta G. We can talk about it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You know what\u2019s funny is when Tim, this is how you know it\u2019s good, off camera, Tim\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t want to mention the brand because if I do, it\u2019ll sell out and I won\u2019t be able to get my own supply.\u201d And that\u2019s how I knew I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s some good shit.\u201d If Tim wants to guard his own supply of it, you know it\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And it is good, but it\u2019s BHB. I won\u2019t get too much into the technicality here, but it\u2019s beta-hydroxybutyrate bonded to 1,3-Butanediol. So you\u2019re still getting that 1,3-Butanediol, which means you should take it. In moderation. But in a pinch, when you want it for a podcast or something like that, man, it really works.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It does work.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It really works. And I mean, I\u2019ve given it to relatives with dementia and within 20 minutes, their sentences have like 5Xed in length and they\u2019re more acute verbally. It\u2019s wild.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>How do you give it? I wish they had it in pill form because in some sense it\u2019s really hard to give that to someone that has dementia because it tastes like gasoline.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It doesn\u2019t taste great. It\u2019s not the worst thing. I mean, I\u2019ve had a lot of foul stuff in my life. I just did a shot with this person and I was like, \u201cI\u2019ll do it with you.\u201d And then we went for a walk and that was it. There are some concerns around 1,3-Butanediol and balance. So particularly in older adults, you do not want to contribute to any risk of breaking a hip.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, 100 percent.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s just the death knell for a lot of people. I know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I just had to put my mom into a different home that has\u2014it\u2019s actually kind of cool. It\u2019s sad, because she\u2019s been falling and they have this like new AI orb that sits up there and it kind of does like a kind of radar type situation and it detects falls.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So the second she falls in the home, they can rush in and help her out and all that and they carpet the hell out of it now and stuff like that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>How do you think about sort of pre-grieving that or contending with that yourself?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>In terms of\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>With family, that\u2019s rough. I mean, it doesn\u2019t sound easy. Because if you play forward the tape, it\u2019s like, I mean, I think about this with my own parents and it\u2019s just like, nobody lasts forever.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s one of those things where it\u2019s so funny because when you\u2019re a teenager and I remember when my dad was having a hard time standing and this was like when I was much younger before he passed and I was like, \u201cOh, dad\u2019s going to be in the thing that I might have to push him on it if he has to sit down.\u201d Kind of those walkers that can also be something you can push somebody on. I was so embarrassed. I was like, \u201cOh, people are looking at us or whatever.\u201d And now I push my mom with pride in the inner walker thing and I\u2019m like, I don\u2019t know. You don\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen, but it\u2019s like, the only thing you can do is just make sure to show up and hang out. And I\u2019m very lucky that my mom has dementia, but it is a type that it\u2019s not Alzheimer\u2019s so it\u2019s probably vascular or something. I can walk in and she knows who I am. She can\u2019t tell you what she had for breakfast, but she knows who I am, which is like, I\u2019ll take that all day long.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>For sure. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I know you have family members that are in the same boat, which is tough.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I have a ton of family members with Alzheimer\u2019s. I mean, I literally got a call from one of my relatives wanting to discuss interventions and it\u2019s a tough conversation because there really isn\u2019t much. You have to, as far as I can tell, act preemptively, which is why, actually this relates to another bullet of mine. I\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You have five?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What was that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>How many Bulleits did you have?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, how many Bulleits did I have?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I was just curious.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Of all the rye whiskeys, it\u2019s the only one that I can tolerate. I loathe stationary bikes. I really find stationary biking to be one of the most soul crushing things in the world.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s the worst.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>However, I mean, I\u2019ve tried Peloton and didn\u2019t like the ergonomics and so on for a bunch of reasons. And then I have tried very expensive, very, very expensive setups recommended to me by fancy doctors and so on, which are just too uncomfortable. I\u2019m incredibly hunched over. My back is basically parallel with the floor.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>What are you talking about?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And I\u2019m kneeling myself in the stomach. It\u2019s so uncomfortable.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Like crunching machines? What are you talking about?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, no, I\u2019m talking about getting on a stationary bike. But if you\u2019re in a racing position, you have to adopt this hunchback and there are a million reasons why I find that uncomfortable. There is a bike, however, it\u2019s very easy to find. It\u2019s pretty common in public gyms called the Keiser M3i Studio Indoor Bike. I don\u2019t know why they have to make it so difficult in its nomenclature, but the Kaiser M3i is unique in my experience in that you can elevate the handlebars enough to sit in a comfortable position with a decent saddle, meaning the seat, such that I can do the V2 and the V4 and all of that training for me in a comfortable position without compromising my low back, which has been a huge step forward.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So this is the only bike that I\u2019ve used consistently for this kind of training. I was having a number of conversations with a neuroscientist named Dr. Tommy Wood over a period of weeks. And if for instance, you do something called the Norwegian 4\u00d74, there\u2019s data to suggest that if you do\u2014it\u2019s VO2 max training, so it\u2019s very, very, very intense, but it\u2019s like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Four on, four off?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Four minutes on, three to four minutes off, let\u2019s just call it three minutes. Four minutes on, three minutes off. And you do that for four rounds. This is the only bike that I\u2019ve been able to use to do this consistently. And if you do that for, I think it\u2019s three times a week for five to six months, the volumetric changes, meaning the neuroanatomical changes in the hippocampus and other areas that are certainly indicated in things like Alzheimer\u2019s lasts for up to five years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So if you do five to six months gutting it out three times a week, the results\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Holy shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>The dividends pay off for, it seems, up to or possibly beyond five years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Holy shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Crazy.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So that\u2019s part of\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>[crosstalk] sauna in there and you\u2019re like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, that\u2019s why I\u2019m doing\u2014yeah, I\u2019m doing all the usual stuff, I\u2019m doing the sauna. And don\u2019t let perfect be the enemy of good. You know what I mean? It\u2019s like, okay, sure. You don\u2019t have 30 minutes to do it, do 10 minutes. You can\u2019t do a sauna, take a hot bath, figure it out.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You know what my good is that I like?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s not perfect, but it\u2019s good, which is I go on my treadmill, I set it to 4.75 or something incline. So it\u2019s not crazy, but it\u2019s not, I still do shit. And I set it to only like 2.5 on the walking and I\u2019ll play Duolingo chess because they have chess on there now for Duolingo. They teach you chess, it\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And you can play friends and live people and all that stuff and they do game replays and they teach\u2014and I\u2019m learning a ton. And 30, 40 minutes go by and you\u2019re drenched in sweat. I know it\u2019s not high intensity and all the benefits on the cognitive side seem to be around a lot of high [crosstalk].<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, but who knows?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>But it\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s doing something.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s doing something. So I\u2019ve really enjoyed that. If you just want something to both be learning and engaged and kind of like having fun so you forget about the time. Do you know what I\u2019m talking about where it\u2019s like you just like, \u201cOh, wait, what time is it? Oh, shit, I\u2019ve been on for 37 minutes. I can get off now.\u201d I love that type of cardio.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. I mean, for me, I mean, this is going to sound like maybe a step down, but it\u2019s like the older I get, the more I realize a little goes a long way. Like yesterday, for instance, I had a bunch of stuff stacked up and I won\u2019t bore people with the commitments, but I didn\u2019t really have any time to go to the gym and it was my day to go to the gym to do X, Y, and Z exercise. And I went in and I did like, three sets. I was literally in there for five minutes and I left, but it\u2019s better than nothing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Totally.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Something is better than nothing. I\u2019m not going to go to the Olympics with that approach, but let\u2019s fucking be real. I\u2019m not going to the Olympics, period.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You\u2019re not going to the Olympics. I mean, maybe it\u2019s like a bystander. Like, in the\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah. Oh, man, I\u2019ll throw some new random stuff in there. There\u2019s a study that got my attention, it\u2019s been out since 2025, September 2025. This is in JAMA and this is the title, Single Treatment with MM120, and then in parentheses Lysergide, I think is how that\u2019s pronounced, in Generalized Anxiety Disorder. So this is\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>GAD.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>GAD. This is a randomized clinical trial looking at anxiety, which is often comorbid, meaning happening at the same time as depressive disorders. And I think this is sponsored by a company called Definium, which used to be MindMed. In any case\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I love where this is going. I just looked it up. Oh, my God.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. So what\u2019s interesting about this, and they\u2019re not going to maybe love my comparison, but so MM120, Lysergide, I mean, it\u2019s comparable to LSD. And this is a multi-arm clinical trial. They did five arms, which is rare to do because\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Arms?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>The risk is that they\u2019ll blend together. So the arm means a group who is treated with a different intervention in this case. So they\u2019ve got placebo, 25 micrograms, 50 micrograms, 100 micrograms, and 200 micrograms. 100 mics is\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s what they give standard for LSD.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s what you can think of as a standard hit, 100 micrograms. And the results are wild, man. If you look at the HAM-A score, this is up to 12 weeks out. You can see, I\u2019ll just show you, how it\u2019s dose dependent. The more you take, basically the better it goes up to, and I\u2019m not sure how long the follow-ups continued, but where you land is you see that the 100 micrograms and 200 are very, very close to each other.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, so might as well take 100.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>25 and 50 are certainly a lot higher.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Now are you still getting the same psychedelic experience with this stuff?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>In the case of this particular compound, I don\u2019t know. My guess would be yes. I could be totally wrong in that. So Definium, feel free to correct me. I am guessing the answer is yes with MM120, but what that says to me is, hey, 12 weeks of relief with GAD, generalized anxiety disorder, which I\u2019ve been clinically diagnosed with, that and OCD, 12 weeks is pretty good. And it seems like at least according to the data in this study, the minimum effective dose would be 100 micrograms. Now, 100 micrograms at least for me and for a lot of people, you\u2019ll be tripping your balls off, not to get too technical.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Wait a second. Dude, it says that this was done at Neuroscape at UCSF.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Was it really?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>This is Adam\u2019s lab.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No shit. Are you serious?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I\u2019m dead serious. I just clicked through on it. It says phase three trial of MM120 for GAD.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, that\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>This is our buddy doing this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>This is our buddy, Adam. Okay. Well, I have a text that I need to send then.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, my God.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome. I wonder if I indirectly funded this because I helped fund some of Neuroscape\u2019s stuff. That\u2019s funny. I did not\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Isn\u2019t that hilarious?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I did not look at that. That\u2019s hilarious. Small world.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay. There you go. So it\u2019s interesting for GAD. We were talking about dementia. There\u2019s a case report with high dose psilocybe mushrooms, I don\u2019t think it was actually psilocybin synthesized, looking at this particular thing was a Japanese elderly woman with dementia, may have been Alzheimer\u2019s who took, I can\u2019t believe they did this to her\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Five grams, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And then she took five grams. So Terence McKenna, heroic dose, somehow fell asleep for like 19 hours or something obscene, which would be very, very worrisome if you\u2019re like the child of said parent. Wakes up and then starts having like full expositional conversations in contrast with her previous like monosyllabic or single word responses to things. And it was transient. It didn\u2019t last forever, but it raises some very interesting questions. I\u2019ve seen at least some case reports also with LSD producing similar effects. And I\u2019ve been interested in this for probably a decade. I\u2019ve hypothesized this could be the case. It\u2019s just like, do you really want to give your parent\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Especially that age.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Under what circumstances is it ethical to give someone hallucinogens?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>See, I could never do that to my mom because she was always anti all this stuff. And then the second, God forbid they have a bad trip, like why would you want to put them through that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. So it\u2019s curious. I was sent something by someone I won\u2019t mention, but a very interesting case report on microdosing with LSD with someone with dementia.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Did it work?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, really?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And in terms of similar to the ketones, not saying the mechanism is the same, but producing much more verbal fluidity. Going from like, \u201cI\u2019m good. It depends.\u201d I have relatives who are limited to that now. They\u2019re basically giving answers that are non-answers. \u201cSounds good.\u201d These things that you could use as a reply to anything, they\u2019re not necessarily grokking what\u2019s happening, to full paragraphs. Which means to my interpretation, it\u2019s offline to online. It\u2019s a really stark difference because with the one word, two word answers, you don\u2019t actually know if they\u2019re understanding what\u2019s happening.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Do you have some MM120 on you right now?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, I don\u2019t. I don\u2019t. If I did, I would probably not take it tonight necessarily.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>If you see a weird cut in the video and then we get infinitely smarter, you\u2019ll know why.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Little glitch here or there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It\u2019s a flash and all of a sudden we\u2019re just like Rain Man.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>For the smarter, I would keep it probably to 20 mics or below. We\u2019ll see. But I found this pretty interesting\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s so cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>For GAD especially and then for the dementia piece, but it raises a lot of ethical questions. What is ethical to use as a treatment in someone who cannot give consent? That\u2019s a tough, gnarly problem.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Especially if you\u2019re dealing with stuff that is not exactly prescription medication.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. I mean, that\u2019s the whole thing. If it goes sideways, you feel like an asshole.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, to put it mildly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, to put it mildly. But it\u2019s amazing and it gives you another half day with a parent or a loved one and you can full on have conversations and they see you and you see them in a way that you hadn\u2019t in six months or a year, that\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Or if it potentially slows the decline. I think it\u2019s too much to hope for a reversal frankly, but there are some strange phenomena out there, man. There\u2019s this phenomenon called terminal lucidity where someone on their deathbed when they\u2019ve been vegetative\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, I\u2019ve heard about this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014and, like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>There\u2019s that book that\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014right\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014I told you to read. Did you read that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I\u2019m not sure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The afterlife book?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, I didn\u2019t read that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Okay, because they\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>But this is\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014talk about that case.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014well documented, where people\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014suddenly, they\u2019ve been basically vegetative or completely unable to respond to any stimulus.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>In like the last two days they come\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>They\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014fully lucid, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014they become totally lucid, and they can have full-blown extensive conversations.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s why I know\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What the fuck is going on there?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Dude, I\u2019m telling you, it is so weird to me that we think, like\u2014 Like a lot of the things that we do in physical form, like what we do in life mimics nature in many ways. And all of our data is backed up in the cloud, and we\u2019re like, \u201cOh, we\u2019re not backed up in the cloud in any way.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then there\u2019s these people with full-blown entanglements in their brain, full on, you know, the Alzheimer\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay. All right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014for like a decade, and then they become completely lucid.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Lucid. Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Where is that coming from?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay. I see what you\u2019re saying. I wasn\u2019t tracking that fully for a second, but if I\u2019m hearing you correctly, it\u2019s like, if it\u2019s all localized\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>In the cloud. Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, I\u2019m saying if all of that ability is localized within the confines of the skull, how do you explain this?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Given all the structural deterioration.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Damage. Exactly. Exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. I don\u2019t have good answers for that. I just don\u2019t. It is a well-documented, as far as I know, a well-documented phenomenon. So it\u2019s like, go figure that one out. I mean, I\u2019m not qualified, way above my pay grade. Crazy, man. It\u2019s wild.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It is wild.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So I\u2019ll give a shout-out to somebody. We\u2019re not going to open this right now because we\u2019ll start chewing on them and we\u2019ll be up all night.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Is that the 120?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, this is Neutonic, N-E-U-T-O-N-I-C, Nootropics. See, that\u2019s a pun. Nootropics, because these are toothpicks that I was given by a podcaster you may recognize named Chris Williamson. And they have\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, nice.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014they have, like, 20, I want to say 20, I might be getting that off, but like 20, 25 milligrams of caffeine in each toothpick.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And there are a couple of other nootropics, AKA\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s a quarter-cup\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014smart drug\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014of coffee, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014yeah, smart drugs in there. And they\u2019re great. It\u2019s just, like, suck on a toothpick.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Because if I have cups of coffee, I will chug a cup of coffee and then if it gets refilled, I\u2019ll chug another cup of coffee, and it\u2019s a problem. These actually is, in terms of pacing\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Hm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014have been fantastic.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s amazing. So that\u2019s been my sort of, not exactly quite as interruptive for people to get that, but sort of ad libidum interruptus.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah. Avoiding over-consumption of coffee and other stimulants, this helps me to kind of pace it. Because even if I chew on this thing until it\u2019s fragments of wood, max I can squeeze out of it is 20, 25 milligrams.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What else do you got, Kevin?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Let\u2019s take a little look-see. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, the only other thing that I have that I think is interesting is what\u2019s happening in the world of\u2014I don\u2019t want to talk a lot about AI because I\u2019m just frankly AI\u2019d out, but I will say that the idea that we can all now kind of take control of our productivity and pretty much anything that we want to control now, like device-wise, we can do with just a few simple prompts on AI.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I had a buddy that came over to my house and he was like, \u201cHey, you got cameras in your house.\u201d I have something called Ubiquiti, which is like, they have cameras and it\u2019s a very common kind of household type situation when you want to have security system, front door thing, cameras, sensors, water detectors underneath the things in case things leak and you\u2019re out of town, whatever.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so I\u2019ve got this whole setup and he\u2019s like, \u201cHey, you know they have a full on API where you can just tell Claude or whatever to code against it.\u201d And I was like, \u201cOkay, well that\u2019s interesting. Well, what can it do? \u201d And so, the cameras now have AI sensors where they can detect who it is that\u2019s walking in.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, Tim\u2019s coming up to your door.\u201d \u201cOh, that\u2019s your daughter,\u201d or \u201cThat\u2019s your dog.\u201d It detects my dog, Toaster. It sees him and it puts a little dog emblem above his head when he\u2019s walking around and it knows that it\u2019s Toaster. But the crazy shit is I was like, \u201cOkay, well what if I can go further and I can tell it to do actions,\u201d because there\u2019s a speaker hooked up to it as well, so that\u2019s for security.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So basically if anyone loiters in my alleyway and it detects it, it\u2019s like I play some really funky shit where it\u2019s like \u201cDetected,\u201d like, \u201cLoiterer in the alleyway\u201d or whatever and just to scare people off in case they\u2019re\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I am the Batman.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, but you could draw little areas around where they shouldn\u2019t be, which is like at your door fiddling with your door and say, \u201cIf they stand here for more than 30 seconds, place that audio out of speaker.\u201d So I was like, okay, this is interesting. Well, what if when I walk in my house, if I\u2019m wearing a hat of my favorite sports team and they\u2019re playing, it reads me the scores like I walk in.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So you can think about all these things where it\u2019s doing stuff based on your activity, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So like if you\u2019re out there gardening, it\u2019ll be like, \u201cHey Kevin, I noticed that the plant over here wasn\u2019t watered enough.\u201d So it\u2019s watching all of this stuff and so there\u2019s a lot of, \u201cIf then, then that\u201d kind of situation, like, \u201cIf I see you doing X\u2014\u201d So the latest I have is, like, I programmed it so when it sees the license plate on my car, it automatically knows to open the gate because it knows it\u2019s me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, that\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And the camera looks at the license plate on the freaking car, checks it against the database, and allows me in. How crazy is that? And for people that are listening, I\u2019m not talking about, like, $10,000 systems. The camera\u2019s like $200. Anyone can do this at home, you know?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, wild.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s just wild to think about. Finally, we had all these kind of discrete systems that you had some Nest stuff, and I had some Google Home stuff, and now they\u2019re all talking to each other. So you can just do kind of really crazy. I know you would like this because you\u2019re the kind of person that you\u2019ve told me before, like, you don\u2019t like to answer your door because if the delivery person is like, \u201cTim!\u201d then all of a sudden your address is, like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Then I need\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014all over the internet.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Then I\u2019m doxxed. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. I mean, I know you\u2019ve said you don\u2019t\u2014I\u2019m also pretty AI\u2019d out, but at the same time it\u2019s like, I can\u2019t resist going back to the opium den. It\u2019s so fascinating.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>What are you doing now with AI stuff?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, I mean, I\u2019m more curious to hear your thoughts and predictions frankly, because I think you\u2019re better at it. But, I mean, I\u2019m using Claude Code with APIs to do tons of inbox analysis and stuff\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014right? I\u2019m doing a 20-year retrospective analysis of angel investing. It\u2019s like, who made what introductions? Which companies did I not reply to that ended up being successes?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Which did I turn down that ended up being really important?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Do you really want to do it to yourself?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, I suspected it would be worse than it was. I actually have not\u2014I haven\u2019t missed that many explicit opportunities. I wanted to test my own stories against data, right? Because I have all sorts of stories\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014about why I did certain things\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Right, right, right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014and why certain things worked out. And I have certain stories about my batting average and I\u2019m like, \u201cBut is it true?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201cReally?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Of course.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201cIs it really true?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Because\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201cLet\u2019s look at some hard numbers.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014the sad truth, and I have a buddy that wears up the bracelet, and you\u2019ve seen me with the necklace around the way it categorizes your AI and it listens to you 24\/7, it\u2019s about 70-ish percent that we think we know, but it\u2019s actually what we know. Out of the hundred percent of what we think we know, this is the truth. I said I wanted a dark chocolate bar at 7:00 p.m.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s like, \u201cNo, you said it at 5:00, and you said it this way.\u201d You know, it\u2019s like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And you said it was milk chocolate.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. So it\u2019s always about 20 percent off from where you actually think\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014your brain\u2019s at.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Sure. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Which is brutal.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, plus, I mean, that\u2019s like last week, right? If you\u2019re talking about 15 years ago.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I mean, if you listen to any genesis story of any startup, you\u2019re like, \u201cEh\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, my God.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201c\u2014wait a minute now.\u201d This is like a startup comic working on material, but he\u2019s been working on this one five-minute bit so long that now he believes that\u2019s actually truth. I mean, the sanitizing and the editing of these startup genesis stories is hilarious, and there\u2019s no reason to think that I would be or you would be exempt from it\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014right? When you\u2019re telling your\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Absolutely not.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014own story, even if you\u2019re just telling it to yourself.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So what\u2019s the number one thing that you\u2019ve learned by applying AI to your life in this fashion? What\u2019s the thing where you walked away and said, like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014\u201dDamn, that was insightful and I\u2019m going to change my behavior,\u201d or, \u201cI learned something new about myself that I wouldn\u2019t have if I had not used AI\u201d?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, I think from a holistic health perspective, by \u201cholistic\u201d I mean having enough data related to medications, supplements, predispositions, side effects, what happened to me two weeks ago, the LLMs have been incredibly helpful. I mean, the picture that they get and the speed with which they can deliver an answer that I can interrogate is just incredible. So I\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>What did you learn? What was the thing that you, like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I mean, honestly, it\u2019s mostly avoiding disaster, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s like, are any of these things contraindicated with one another? Could A, B, or C explain D? Right? And you have to keep in mind these things can still hallucinate, but you can, I don\u2019t want to say, eliminate that, but minimize it by just fact-checking across LLMs. Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And so there\u2019s that. I would say that there\u2019s a lot of insight on hopefully that that can translate to future decision-making related to investing, which is, investing for me is not just amassing more chips. What\u2019s fun about investing to me is it\u2019s a way to scorecard your thinking and decision making.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Mm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Right? It\u2019s just a very objective way to decide if something was the right or the wrong decision. And you can fine slice that and there are ways that you could maybe question that. But if you\u2019re asking yourself, \u201cWas I thinking well last month?\u201d that\u2019s not a very helpful question. Where do you go from there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you\u2019re logging maybe every decision you make every day, and then trying to cross reference outcomes with blah, blah, blah, like yeah, but you\u2019re never going to do that. But when you\u2019re making relatively frequent investments, you can do that. You can also run counterfactuals, right? \u201cWhat if I did the opposite? What if I had not sold that? What if I had kept that? What if I had done this? What if I had done that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Is that worth your time though? At the end of the day\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s worth\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014you can throw everything into S&amp;P 500\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014and just go to bed.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014well, there\u2019s that. I would say it\u2019s worth it to me because I find it interesting. I actually enjoy the intellectual exercise of it, but otherwise I would say with in terms of like how AI has impacted me, I would say that the honest answer is not that much, because most shit isn\u2019t worth doing in the first place.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">People are finding very, very clever ways to expedite automating workflows of all different types, and doing something well does not make it important or worth doing in the first place. So there\u2019s a lot, I think the level of bullshit that is being done just at a very fast efficient rate is skyrocketing, but simultaneously there are definitely cases where I look back at, say, this analysis of 20 years of stuff, to do that manually would be impossible.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right? It would take me a year full time with multiple people to do that, and with a Claude code, like Gmail API and leaving my computer running for a handful of hours a few times, that\u2019s like, what you get back is fucking incredible. It\u2019s unbelievable. And I haven\u2019t even scratched the surface.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I will say also another way that AI has maybe affected my life in a net negative way and I\u2019m not, we have another mutual friend who maybe we shouldn\u2019t name who feels very similarly. Is\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>[REDACTED].<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>We\u2019ll bleep that out, but yeah, Jesus Christ. So is, if you train AIs on your writing, they\u2019re really good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And it\u2019s, I think I feel\u2014I mean, this is a stretch of a comparison obviously because I\u2019m not an adept like a world class Go player, but when AlphaGo defeated one of the top Korean players, he was kind of like, \u201cI\u2019m done. I don\u2019t find joy in this anymore, like, if we\u2019re playing against machines.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And when I see these AIs very beautifully, I\u2019m not going to lie, and we\u2019re like in the top of the first inning, right? This stuff is going to get so much better, spit out stuff that is so much better\u2014I mean, I can still write, but what they can do in 30 seconds is what would take me 30 hours. And I\u2019m just like, \u201cFuck.\u201d I don\u2019t know. It really drains the motivation for me to put in those 30 hours.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Why wouldn\u2019t it? Of course it would, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. But in some sense you can consider it a really good copilot, because for it to come up with novel ideas that would engage an audience, that\u2019s still the holy grail where it\u2019s not quite there yet. Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s going to make you sound\u2014It\u2019s going to button up your copy, and it might expand upon it in ways that you wouldn\u2019t, but it\u2019s not going to come up with the original thesis for the whole thing, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s going to have trouble with the original thesis, but even there I think it does a pretty good job.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Really, it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Like, you just\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014getting better?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014you just\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I haven\u2019t tried with writing stuff, so.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, if you just do a data dump and you\u2019re like, \u201cCreate an amazing\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, you sent me that link.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, if you just do a data dump, you\u2019re like create\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, where you sent me that link you were like, \u201cWhat should Tim do in the next five years?\u201d Remember?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, yeah, that was good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That was really interesting. Tell people what you did, because they might find this, I think it applies to their own life.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Sure. So, you could do this in whichever model you\u2019re using, whether it\u2019s Claude or ChatGPT or whatever. If it knows you, right, if it\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You can tie in your inbox too.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, you can tie in your inbox. In my case, I didn\u2019t do that, but if it has enough history on you, you can just ask, \u201cWhat do you think I should do in the next five years? What might be some rewarding paths of exploration?\u201d I think I put something like that, like, \u201cWhat are three to five ideas that you think could be rewarding career exploration for me\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I love this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201c\u2014in the next X period of time?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So, if for people listening\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And the answer\u2019s\u2014yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014if they\u2019ve used AI for, let\u2019s call it, three to six months, and you\u2019ve probably given it several hundred things to think about, it will span cross those conversations as long as you turn this on. I think it\u2019s on by default now, but it used to be an opt-in thing where you\u2019d say, \u201cAllow the AI to look cross-conversation,\u201d so it has a wholistic understanding of who you are.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And the answers were fucking outstanding.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I mean really, really good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And I sent it to a few friends, sent it to you, I sent it to a few of my closest friends and they\u2019re like, \u201cThat\u2019s pretty good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I mean\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It was really cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Some of the ideas I was like, \u201cDamn, you should do that dude.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>We had this one business idea for you to do, and it wasn\u2019t a book, and I was like, \u201cDude, I texted you back.\u201d I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s awesome. Go build that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean, there were business ideas, there were certainly kind of non-revenue, but philosophically-aligned ideas. It was shocking to me. I mean, that\u2019s actually a very good example of something that has deeply informed what I\u2019m mulling over as I imagine the future. I was like, \u201cMan, that actually is a really good\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because, keeping in mind, I\u2019m asking questions about things of interest, things I like, things I don\u2019t like. I am asking questions about different scientific interests related to Saisei Foundation, my nonprofit foundation. I\u2019m asking questions about investing, I\u2019m asking questions about writing, I\u2019m asking questions about relationships, I\u2019m asking questions about organizing trips for friends. I\u2019m asking so many different questions.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Am I still on the board of your nonprofit?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I think you\u2019re like secretary or something.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, something like that. I haven\u2019t heard anything about it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I don\u2019t know. Maybe you were honorably discharged\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, I don\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014think you did\u2014I never got any paperwork around it. I haven\u2019t heard anything in, like, three years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, well I said it was going to be a light lift. It\u2019s a light lift.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>There\u2019s a light lift.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And I mean, that\u2019s a very good example, right? I mean, that may be the best example because if that even 10 percent informs a major next chapter\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, 100 percent.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014holy shit, that\u2019s a big deal for me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Certainly. And\u2014it makes me think a little bit about podcast listeners especially, readers also, but to a greater extent, podcast listeners who come up to me and most listeners I run into are really great and I mean, there are always a couple of weirdos, but most are fantastic and they\u2019ll say something often like, \u201cI\u2019m so sorry, you don\u2019t know me at all, and I feel like I know you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And what I say a lot of the time is, \u201cActually, if you listen to my podcast every week or even every month, you do know me pretty well.\u201d And then you think about a machine that never forgets. It\u2019s going to know you pretty damn well.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And it\u2019s spooky in a way, but I started getting more out of the LLMs when I started asking questions. Now you have to be, I think, a little careful with outsourcing this and absolving yourself of responsibility to think about these things.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But when you ask it open-ended personal questions in the way that you would ask a close friend, \u201cWhat do you think are three to five creative ways I might explore things professionally in the next five years?\u201d As opposed to something that you think is more suitable for a robot\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014you get some really interesting responses.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s so cool. That\u2019s a great use case.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The one thing I\u2019ve been playing around with lately that I haven\u2019t told you about yet, but I think about all these AI startups and everyone that\u2019s creating all these different apps and all that stuff and for me, it\u2019s kind of fun to watch as a kind of bystander being like, \u201cOh, cool, you\u2019re going to make this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But I really want to explore things that just no one has done before. It\u2019s always been interesting to me more than just iterative kind of, like, sanding down with the rough edges. A lot of startups will go out there and be like, \u201cHey, you know what sucks is word processing doesn\u2019t do this so I\u2019m going to make a slightly better word processor.\u201d I\u2019m just making this up.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But I like the kind of like wilder, crazier, like, I\u2019d rather have it fail and say, \u201cI did something new,\u201d than just do something boring, if that makes sense.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, I get it. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And so, lately what I\u2019ve done is\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Part of why I have so many fatalities.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So many fatalities. Yeah. Exactly. Same. What I\u2019ve done lately is I\u2019ve taken\u2014I went and bought a bunch of these decks of cards on Amazon that are values cards.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Meaning they give you like a deck of a hundred things and they\u2019re like, \u201cWhat are your core values?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And you\u2019re like, \u201cEmpathy,\u201d or, \u201cKindness,\u201d or like you flip through them. And the way they typically work is that you have like a, this is a really high value, a medium, and a low value, and then you put them into different stacks and then you walk away and you say, \u201cOh, this is my high value stack of things that are my core values that mean a lot to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Hm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And it might be 10 or 15 different cards, right? And what\u2019s interesting is to do that with friends and partners and things like that and then compare them and say, \u201cHey, what do we align on what we don\u2019t align?\u201d And I can imagine for an intimate partner, this would be a pretty important thing to do, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And so I started there and I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, well, I\u2019m going to scan these cards in, and then I\u2019m going to pare it down and make these core values where you come in and say, \u201cThis matters to me.\u201d It\u2019s almost like a swiping dating app or something like, \u201cYes, I\u2019m into\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201cYes, I\u2019m into\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u201c\u2014into this\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201c\u2014empathy.\u201d \u201cNo, I\u2019m not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Right, exactly. But you swipe through them and then when you\u2019re done with that, then you\u2019ve got your list of these values, and they can change over time. And so I think the important thing is to log that and say, \u201cThese are my values today, but tomorrow one might shift a little bit.\u201d Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And then I thought about contractual bonds, and so the working title I have for it is just called \u201cbond\u201d and where I can say like, with a partner, I\u2019m going to create a contract with you where we both have to shake on it, meaning like a virtual shake. You think of it as almost like a SimCity-like situation. This is my city, this is her city, or a friend\u2019s city, and we\u2019re going to agree that I take the trash out every Tuesday night.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And there\u2019s an emotional shake on both sides, and if I break this bond, it results in what? And so from the partner side, it will result in a one to 10 on how much damaging this is to me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So not taking the trash out, probably be like, \u201cAh, that sucks because the trash is going to overflow.\u201d That\u2019s probably three\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014to most people, right? And so, then I kind of get negative points in case I break that bond. But what\u2019s interesting though is that that will link back to a core value of theirs and a core value of mine.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I want to show up as a good partner, and there\u2019ll be a core value associated with that. And then you could see those bonds between multiple people. And the reason I say this is because I\u2019ve always been one of these people historically that have said yes to so many things, and then, like, be the last minute. I\u2019m the worst at that, you know?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Where I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m in.\u201d And then I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m an introvert. I\u2019m out\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014at the last minute, right? And so I just think that there needs to be a system where, almost like a LinkedIn for like values and trust and bonds, there\u2019s a great Wu Tang quote that\u2019s like, \u201cWord is bond.\u201d And ultimately I really believe that. There\u2019s something really cool about saying, \u201cWe have the Better Business Bureau, that\u2019s like the best we\u2019ve got.\u201d Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Like, \u201cOh, this person, they did well by their customers 2,000 times.\u201d What about individuals and saying, like, \u201cHey, this person was always empathetic towards me or this person was kind and helped me move on a Sunday.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What prompted all this?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m just thinking about it. Just, like, well I\u2014the thing I think about is that there\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That was such a dissatisfying\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Well, I call it\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014answer.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, hold on. Let me give you the real answer. I call this \u201cdark information.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201cDark information\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So \u201cdark information\u201d is information that exists in the real world, but we have yet to put in physical form.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And so right now you and I have a trust thing. You know that you could, if the camera was turned off, there are certain things that you can tell me that you\u2019re pretty certain I will not tell anyone else. Every once in a while I do, but you will know you know where that line is, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>But that hasn\u2019t been concretized in any type of, like, visual, real format. And so there\u2019s something interesting, I\u2019m just brainstorming with you in real time because we\u2019ve had a couple of drinks, but like my point is if there was a system where I could say, \u201cI\u2019ve created these bonds, I\u2019ve built up this reputation,\u201d but it would also give me a way to reflect back and be like, \u201cOh, you know what? I can see now historically that I\u2019ve often bailed on events that I\u2019ve signed up for, let me improve that in myself.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The whole point of what you brought up a minute ago was, if I use AI to go back historically and look across things, I can detect these trends and then make course corrections based on those trends, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And so there\u2019s something interesting about this idea of, there are these different facets, so there\u2019s these like emotional facets that we have with every individual, how might we track those?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, what jumps out at me about this is maybe a cool use case would be identifying, you could write it out or you could have cards, your values, but maybe to put a finer point on it, the type of person you believe yourself to be.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Right, because\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Or the\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014it\u2019s very different than what people perceive you to be.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014or the type of person you want to be.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Right, exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And then it\u2019s like, \u201cLet\u2019s take a look at your calendar and your email and your iMessages to see how much your story of what\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014you think you are or what you want to be matches up with your behavior.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So I built\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And then you get a report card.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014I built a prototype for exactly this. So remember maybe seven years ago you did a 360 review for me?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Those things are brutal.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014for people that don\u2019t know what 360 reviews are, it\u2019s like you give 10 of your friends to somebody, they interview them, they collect all the data anonymously\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Could also be like coworkers, employees\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Coworkers, employees\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014bosses, whatever.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014friends, whatever. And then you get a report back being like, \u201cHere are the deficiencies and positives that this person brings.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Anonymized.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And anonymized.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Brutal.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And they are very different than what you think\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014how you show up.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Totally.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And so that\u2019s the idea.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I literally was looking at mine from, like, 12 years ago\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. I think we did one around the same mind\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014a couple weeks ago and I was just like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. I know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014\u201dSo tough.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Because you get it back and you\u2019re like, \u201cWho said this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Like some of this\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014some of it\u2019s brutal.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I think I know what you said, by the way. Do you ever use the word \u201cchild rearing\u201d?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201cChild rearing\u201d?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Did you ever say that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u201cChild rearing.\u201d I mean\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>To throw me off, would you ever say that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Throw you off the scent trail?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Because before I had kids, somebody in my anonymous 360 review said, like, \u201cOh, he\u2019s going to have a hard time with child-rearing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, no, that wasn\u2019t me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I\u2019m like, \u201cWho the fuck\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u201c\u2014would say \u2018child-rearing\u2019?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, that\u2019s not me, that\u2019s not me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I don\u2019t have any friends that even have that in their vocabulary. And I\u2019m like, \u201cThe only person that could do that would be Tim trying to throw me off with a fucking smart-ass word.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, that wasn\u2019t me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That wasn\u2019t me. That wasn\u2019t me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, no. I think I\u2019d be able to identify whatever responses I gave.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Okay, I got it I guess. That\u2019s the one thing that stuck with me for like 15 years. I\u2019m like, \u201cWho\u2019d said that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Man, you\u2019re lucky if you got off with that. Man, I\u2019ve got so much more. Good Lord. Ah. You know what I\u2019ve been doing that has been really helpful, because the blank page is something I struggle with with writing, which is part of the reason why the AI is so demoralizing in a sense, because the LLMs, within like 30 seconds, are just like, \u201cBoom, how you like me now? Try to match that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But using, even though I certainly don\u2019t know the future of this company because it might get replaced by features that are innate to X, Y, or Z, but Wispr Flow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, God, I love it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. So, using Wispr Flow as a data dump\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I wish I was an investor, it\u2019s freaking awesome.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014and you may have recommended this to me, I can\u2019t recall, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014basically doing a dump of a conversation as I\u2019m walking with Wispr Flow into a note on my phone, then taking that, dropping it into Claude, asking it to clean it up and turn it into something readable has been so helpful, not necessarily for publication, but for emails, especially uncomfortable emails where like, \u201cOh, God, I\u2019m putting it off. I\u2019m procrastinating because I don\u2019t want to do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Just doing like a 10-minute brain dump, it\u2019s shocking how quickly things come together, incredibly helpful. And I\u2019ll just give a shout-out to my friend Elan Lee, co-founder of Exploding Kittens. He recommended this headset because I was on a call with him and I\u2019m like, \u201cMan, that audio is awesome. What are you using?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Can you put it on just for the viewers\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I will. It\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014 and let\u2019s see if it\u2019s going to look as good as I hope it does?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It looks so good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>There, see? Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s pretty good, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So this is the Shokz, S-H-O-K-Z, OpenMeet UC, open ear bone conduction headset. So he was talking and I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat the hell are you wearing?\u201d I was like, \u201cAudio\u2019s really good.\u201d So it looks pretty dorky. This is like a\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Nah, it\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And the bone conduction is right here, effectively in my cheekbones. And when you first use them, you\u2019re like, \u201cWait a second, I feel like this is playing out of speakers, like, this is nonsense,\u201d right? \u201cThis is\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014complete BS.\u201d But then you totally plug your ears and you can still hear perfectly well, which is crazy.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, crazy, yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And what I like about these is, A, the audio quality is great, and the connectivity varies, but the audio quality is fantastic. You can hear. So if I\u2019m walking my dog, walking Molly, and I want to be able to hear traffic and so on, I can use this because especially if I\u2019m using Wispr Flow to data dump into a text file of some type, I don\u2019t really need to be listening. It\u2019s not like I\u2019m on a phone call or a Zoom call or something.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So I find this very, very helpful so that I can actually pay attention to my surroundings. And that\u2019s all I got. It\u2019s basically this and AirPods. I mean, there are other headphones that I will use for professional recording and stuff, but thus far I\u2019ll share one more tech thing real quick. These, this little baggie here, is the <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/dp\/B08YS2G4FB?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=425&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback\">Sennheiser Pro Audio Condenser Microphone<\/a>. It\u2019s very simple.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019ve just been very impressed With the audio, when I\u2019m on the road recording stuff for the podcast like intros or sponsor reads or whatever, it\u2019s just a simple live mic. It\u2019s so simple, but the audio quality, even in a hotel room that is really bouncy, lots of glass, lots of metal where it should sound terrible, if I use a fancy, like this is a sure mic that we have right here, if I were to use this exact mic because I have it at home, in some of these bouncy rooms, it would sound worse, I\u2019m not kidding, than what I get for my purposes\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Wow, crazy.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014with this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s pretty wild, and I love Shure. I use their mics on a lot of podcasts, but in terms of minimizing bounce, for whatever reason, this little baggie that I can stick in a pocket, right? It\u2019s like, \u201cThis is my portable sort of recording studio.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Have you recorded on the iPhone with it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I have.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It sounds good?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It sounds great.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And I don\u2019t have my phone with me. There is an app that you can use for really high fidelity recording. It\u2019s called Ferrite or something like that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s like lossless recording, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Lossless recording. It\u2019s like F-E-R-R-I-T-E, something like that. I\u2019ll put the link in the show notes for this for people who are interested. The quality is absurd. And you can also use Descript or one of these programs to do AI cleanup and it\u2019s crazy how smooth it is.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, you don\u2019t need Descript anymore. You can just use all the models to do it. Gemini is actually quite good at multimodal audio video, all that stuff.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, cool. Yeah. Gemini, honestly, I\u2019ve been using Gemini more and more just because it\u2019s such plug and play with\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s fast too.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>\u2014with G Suite also.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. I mean, 35 Flash is a great model. Although the new Sonnet just came out and that\u2019s from Anthropic that just came out. I haven\u2019t played with it yet because it was literally launched today and it\u2019s supposed to be fantastic.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So what do you think the landscape looks like in a few years? You\u2019ve got Anthropic and OpenAI racing to IPO. See where that goes. You\u2019ve got Mythos\/Fable taken off.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Mythos is out tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Back out tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Right. Okay. Was a national security threat yesterday, but it isn\u2019t today.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What do you think? I mean, I think the\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s the big three. It\u2019s three players. It\u2019s Google, Anthropic and OpenAI. And X is trying and I would never ever count out Elon. Obviously he has the funds to make it happen.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, also Anthropic and Google are buying excess capacity from Colossus, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. But that means that their product isn\u2019t working because they bought that capacity for themselves.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So that means that no one\u2019s using Grok. I mean, I actually like Grok. They have done\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I use Grok more than people might realize.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Well, here\u2019s what\u2019s interesting about it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>For current events and synthesizing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yes. So it has direct access to the X API and that it has actually X tools built into Grok. So if you want to get, like you said, current events, news, things like that. And they\u2019ve also said that it is one of the most grounded models and doesn\u2019t hallucinate so that it\u2019s really good at. And so on Digg, when we relaunch it and we use a lot of AI to come up with the different stories and all of that, we use it a ton because we want that grounded information that is true. And so it\u2019s really important to have that. I don\u2019t know. I mean, I think I wouldn\u2019t count them out. I should probably include them in that list but that\u2019s it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right. So big three.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What do you think things look like in two years? You\u2019re very good at this. I\u2019m not saying, obviously this is just fucking bullshitting and speculating, but what\u2019s your guess?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I mean\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I went pretty heavy into Alphabet thanks to you, which\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>You went heavy in Alphabet?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And then they had a 40 percent pop on a $4 trillion company. What is going on?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I haven\u2019t even watched. Is it up?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, well, I mean, look, this was a while back. A while back in AI time, which is like dog years. So by that I mean like five months ago.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah. Listen, exactly. Five months is like 10 years now. So here is why I like Google. They own the full stack. They have their own chips. And so one of the things that I did a deep dive on was the chips that they are building are, they\u2014really confused the industry. It\u2019s my understanding that they made an insanely high bandwidth and kind of memory throughput when everyone was like, \u201cHey, why are you opening up these channels and making them so high bandwidth for this kind of data flow?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I talked to a buddy and he was like, \u201cYeah, everyone was confused at first when they saw the architecture for their latest AI chips.\u201d And then they realized that we will live in a world right now where a model drops. Fable goes live tomorrow on Wednesday, right? And the next OpenAI model goes live in two weeks or whatever because they have that rumored one. It\u2019s like old software deployment where it was like model trained, released, out, model trained, released, out. That\u2019s the cadence we\u2019re on right now. What Google is betting, and I know I know they\u2019re all thinking this, but what Google\u2019s betting with this high throughput kind of wide memory architecture is the future is continuous learning. And so everyone is saying like we\u2019re 12 to 18 months out, maybe a little bit longer\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>From what?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>From self-improving models.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I see. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So 27\/7, it\u2019s no longer about like, \u201cOh, Mythos came out today. Woo, crazy.\u201d It\u2019s not about those new models dropping. It\u2019s about\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s like a child learning day by day.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Tomorrow, it\u2019ll be better than today, forever. And when that happens and they own the full stack, Google\u2019s got the chips, granted they\u2019re going to be constrained by TSMC, which is the only player that\u2019s producing \u2014I mean, there\u2019s a few others, Samsung and Micron and a few others, but TSMC is like the leader and I believe they\u2019re producing Google\u2019s chips as well. But they\u2019ve got the chips architecture, they\u2019ve got the models, they\u2019ve got the engineers. They\u2019re freaking\u2014I mean, they lost a great one a week ago, but it\u2019s crazy what they\u2019re paying these engineers. Did you see some of this? It\u2019s like a billion dollars situation. It\u2019s insane what they\u2019re paying some of these people to stay around.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s what Meta was doing to poach also.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Meta, I just don\u2019t think they\u2019re going to make it, man.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Listen, they have great businesses. Instagram is phenomenal. They\u2019ve got these fantastic assets, but I just don\u2019t think they have the talent to pull off what these other bigs are pulling off.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>What do the big three look like in two years, do you think? Because Google has a lot of advantages, like you mentioned, right? I mean, also vast data center expertise, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>They have the data centers. They have Android, which is like 60 some percent of the population or something like that. So they have the install base. I have a hard time believing that if you believe that AI inference and all the costs associated with AI eventually kind of settles and it\u2019s affordable, and yes, it\u2019ll probably be like a Netflix type plan where we\u2019re all like, \u201cOh, yeah, that\u2019s our extra $30 a month to get all the AI shit, whatever.\u201d If it\u2019s coming on your device and also Google\u2019s powering a lot of Apple shit, though Apple has some unique tech.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s interesting. Apple is kind of coming up. I wouldn\u2019t write off Apple either. Apple\u2019s another one, but they\u2019re probably another couple years out. I don\u2019t know. I mean, at the end of the day, for me, I\u2019m old enough now to not want to be like, \u201cHey, this is the 10xer.\u201d Actually, it\u2019s interesting. I called on your podcast. I don\u2019t know if you know this, but four years ago I was like, \u201cDude, NVIDIA\u2019s going to crush it, blah, blah, blah.\u201d There\u2019s been some dumb predictions. We\u2019ve definitely made some bad ones too. So I\u2019m not going to say it\u2019s been all good, but we\u2019ve called out some stuff. In the world of AI, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s winner take all. Unless somebody hits some kind of crazy escape velocity that is like truly it\u2019s like, aware.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So what do you think, just I\u2019m curious, because you\u2019re so much better at this kind of stuff than I am. I\u2019m like good at my dumb little corners here and there, but you\u2019ve worked at Google, and you worked on their ill-fated social product at one point, right? What was it called? I can\u2019t remember.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Google Plus.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Google Plus, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, it was horrible. I left right away.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Right. And very wisely segued to Google Ventures. I guess my point is when people think consumer, not enterprise, when they think AI right now, they think ChatGPT, right? ChatGPT has raised a ton of fucking money. They\u2019ve got to figure out ads almost certainly. That\u2019s not easy. That is very, very, very hard to do. I\u2019m pretty familiar with the ads business at Google. Very hard to do at a high level.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">However, when average Joe or Jane on the street thinks AI, they think ChatGPT. And when I have tried to set up the Gmail API for Claude, the process on the Google side is such dog shit. The UX is terrible. It is so bad and I\u2019d like to think myself reasonably decent with tech stuff, not as technical as you are, but pretty good, I would like to think. Nonetheless, I need someone on my staff to walk me through step by step to do it because it\u2019s so counterintuitive and there are errors all over the place.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then you\u2019ve got Anthropic, which is, if we are to believe the headlines on ARR just like crushing on the enterprise side.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>100 percent.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Like the fastest scaling business of all time on a lot of different measures. However, they\u2019ve gotten a number of pretty strong bitch slaps from the administration. At the same time, it seems unlikely that any of these frontier labs are going to be left unconstrained by the government, so that\u2019s like a huge question there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I think China will push that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay. Tell me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Well, so China\u2019s been launching new models and they just did one a week ago that was on par with Fable and they\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Was that Alibaba or someone else?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, it\u2019s\u2026<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It doesn\u2019t matter, but yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>But these are open source models. So it\u2019s actually really interesting because China is like, \u201cOkay, listen, we\u2019re going to open source this and people will use our tech.\u201d They\u2019re almost doing it the American way. They\u2019re not closed sourcing anything. They\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, here\u2019s the free model. Come use ours because we\u2019re going to charge you\u2014you can run it yourself if you want, locally.\u201d And that is going to be increasingly, I think that will be increasingly common.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">AMD came out, I don\u2019t know if you saw what she, the CEO, she\u2019s brilliant. She came out with <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amd.com\/en\/products\/processors\/desktops\/ryzen\/ryzen-ai-halo.html\">this new box that is this little $4,000 box<\/a> or somewhere around there and it can run like these massive multi-billion parameter models locally. So those charges that you were getting for like $1,000 a month or $5,000 a month or whatever in AI expenses is now just that one box that just runs the model locally.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Now granted, it\u2019s probably eight months behind in terms of like the model it can run versus the frontier models.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>For a lot of people, who cares?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>For a lot of people, who cares?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So from a business perspective, and I know that\u2019s tightly related to all sorts of technical considerations, but where do you think Google, I still hate saying Alphabet. Let\u2019s just say Google\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The word on the street is that they have models that are more advanced than Fable. They have not launched them because one, the government\u2019s going to step in and stop them and two, they are very expensive to run and it would cost them a lot of money. They would lose money doing so. And so I think in a year we\u2019re really\u201412 months, we won\u2019t really know where Google\u2019s at because I\u2019m telling you\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>They\u2019re holding on.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose:<\/strong> They\u2019re holding shit back.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Of course they are.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>They\u2019re holding shit back.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Because they have the bank roll to do that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And it\u2019s fucking Google. You don\u2019t understand. My time there, I walked\u2014Sergei took me, and I\u2019m not saying this as a flex. I\u2019m just like, this is just what happened.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Such a flex. Such a flex.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Sergei took me and Bill Maris, who ran Google Ventures\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Smart dude.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Bill\u2019s amazing. Through Google X, and this was years ago.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, cool, fun.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>We got the tour and he was like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s the moonshot factory.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s like, dude, you already worked there and they make you sign when you walk in, like, \u201cDon\u2019t fucking say anything or we\u2019ll kill you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. Google X is like the Willy Wonka.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So I\u2019m like seeing the Waymos before they even talked about them freaking 10 plus years ago, before it was even a thing. And so I saw all the crazy balloon projects and a couple others that they shuttered that I can\u2019t even talk about. But I\u2019m telling you, they\u2019re sitting on tech that\u2019s like five years out that don\u2019t underestimate how many freaking PhDs they have working on this shit. You just can\u2019t imagine what\u2019s under the hood there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Sure, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So for me, I\u2019m not a fan of like at this point when I think about investing into the future, and this is not investment advice, but when the Anthropics and the OpenAIs and the Googles, you name the top five, it\u2019s kind of almost like what they said back in the day when they had the, what was the acronym they used for like Netflix, Google, what was the \u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It changes all the time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>But you know what I\u2019m talking about.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>FANG?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>FANG. Yeah. FANG was a thing and then there\u2019s another one and there\u2019s another one. You\u2019re going to want to own like those five and you\u2019ll sit back and you\u2019ll be like, \u201cDamn, if I\u2019d only just owned Google, I\u2019d be up 70 percent.\u201d But you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, you know what? In combination, I\u2019m up 30 percent and the market\u2019s doing 10 percent.\u201d You\u2019ll be stoked, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, you sent me a graph. We can delete this if we need to.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, the NASDAQ 100?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I mean, for you looking forward, because you bust my balls about some of the swings that I take, which is good. No, you should bust my balls.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I bust it because I\u2019m like, \u201cTim, what are you optimizing for, dude? Another zero? You don\u2019t need another zero on the bank accounts.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I get it, I get it, I get it. But I\u2019m asking you, right? I mean, look, we\u2019re all looking for the feeling of being alive. Part of the way I feel alive is by taking swings, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Fair. Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>My question for you is, you\u2019re not just going to do S&amp;P 500. I find that hard to believe.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I dabble.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay. So if you were\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I\u2019m like you. I bought Waymo stock and you got pissed at me because I didn\u2019t offer you any.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Such a prick. Keeps all the shiny stuff for himself. He\u2019s a greedy little piglet.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I didn\u2019t know you wanted it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, you 100 percent know that I want it because I sent\u2014this actually turned out pretty well. It\u2019s part of the reason why I pulled the trigger on Google was it\u2019s such a simple approach. I took five names, was it? It was like Google, Anthropic, OpenAI, Waymo, handful of other companies. And there was Vercel, Crusoe, a couple of others.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>God damn it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And I sent this list out and I sent it to, I don\u2019t know, five smart people I know who are very, very good investors and have good track records, across asset classes, and a few of them sent that to their technical analysts who specialize in different fields. And I was like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s maybe when I gave you bad advice.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>But I was like\u2014maybe, maybe not. And I was like, \u201cYou have 10 chips. Where do you put those 10 chips as a bet?\u201d That\u2019s it. No further guidance, no caveats, no explanation. And look, I\u2019m not saying this is the most sophisticated investment thesis in the world, but you know that I wanted Waymo because it was on that list and it was one of the winners that came back in terms of if we are to believe the consensus of this small cohort.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And to be a fair, I offered you some of my own purchase and you turned me down.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I may still take you up on it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, you\u2019re gonna just wait till the six-months evaluation\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose:<\/strong> \u201cHey, remember, brother? I think [inaudible] cost.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s on the news. I would love to revisit our conversation from earlier.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>But I think for the average person listening, the good news is that these companies are going out soon, meaning they\u2019re going to be publicly traded companies. They may seem very expensive and very pricey and you\u2019d be right to say that. And so did Amazon when it went out in 2000.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I mean, what was the market cap on Amazon IPO though?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It was like\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s got to be tiny.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, no, no. It\u2019s not about market cap. It\u2019s about price to earnings, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>So I looked at the price\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, now price to earnings will depend a lot \u2014 I mean, it\u2019s going to be very different for OpenAI and Anthropic, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Well, what\u2019s crazy is SpaceX is like 30 percent bump on price to earnings on the peak of Amazon. So SpaceX is like\u2014did you invest in SpaceX or no?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, I started investing in SpaceX like 10, 12 years ago.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, you\u2019re stoked.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I mean, look, yeah, I\u2019m fine. But the point, I would say here also, it\u2019s like if you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, I missed it because only the fancy people get to invest beforehand.\u201d It\u2019s like, no, I mean, SpaceX right now, I\u2019m looking at the chart launched at 160, had this huge bump obviously, but then dropped down and you could have bought it for 156, 154, 153, and now it\u2019s climbing back up. I mean, there\u2019s a lot going on here. And honestly, I still find public equity investing terrifying because there\u2019s so many sharks and there\u2019s short sellers and derivatives and all this craziness going on. And what happens when it\u2019s listed and put into these indexes and blah, blah, blah? All those dynamics are way beyond my capability.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s why I don\u2019t do the day trading thing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, I don\u2019t do day trading.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, I\u2019m just saying, for example, SpaceX, I don\u2019t have a position in SpaceX, but if I did, it would be to hold it for the next 10 years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Here\u2019s a good takeaway. You\u2019re asking what\u2019s the takeaway from my 20-year analysis of the angel investing? It\u2019s still incomplete. There\u2019s a lot left to do and\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Shopify.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, God. Well, that\u2019s a good example, right? It\u2019s like this is going to sound so dumb and, \u201cYeah, duh,\u201d to so many people who are more just better investors than I am, but yeah, I mean, I\u2019ve done pretty well. I think the decisions I made at the time to sell certain things were very logical given the information and my financial status at the time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Totally reasonable, right? So I don\u2019t want to judge a good poker play based on where I am 20 years hence, that\u2019s not reasonable. But the takeaway is like, you\u2019ve got to let your winners run as long as possible.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>100 percent. I\u2019ve lost more money by selling stocks early than I\u2019ve ever probably made buying the original stock.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And the other thing I would say also, for people listening who are like, \u201cOh, my God, if these one percenters are jerking each other off any longer, I\u2019m going to vomit.\u201d If you had just, and some very famous firm did this, maybe it was Sequoia or Benchmark, I can\u2019t recall, but they looked at their gains from initial investment all the way through follow on rounds to IPO and then six months post. So after lockup for, let\u2019s just keep it simple for all intents and purposes. And then they looked at what you would have gained if you bought at IPO and just held for like 10 years and you would have made as much or more if you would just bought as a retail investor.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yep. I mean, that is the silver lining here, which is, I for some reason get fed all a lot of these Instagram videos and two of them that\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You\u2019re on Instagram so much. You send me so many fucking Instagram pics.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>They\u2019re funny though, right? I send some funny shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You do.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>But the interesting thing about it is so many times as individuals, and I\u2019ve fallen into this trap as well, which is you find something that you love and you buy said object when you should actually buy the company. So let\u2019s just pretend you\u2019re going to spend $500 on an iPhone every year since it came out, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And there was this great woman that came in and she was like, \u201cOkay, how do you just for the first four years of the iPhone coming out, rather than buy an iPhone\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Put it into Apple.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>\u2014just put it into Apple.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>That\u2019s so cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And it was like hundreds of thousands of dollars.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And my buddy, sadly, I love you, Prager. David Prager, the second the Tesla came out, not the first one, but the one that was consumer friendly, he went out and he had made a little money and he\u2019s like, \u201cYou know what? I\u2019m going to do it. I\u2019m going to splurge. I\u2019m going to deck it out, spend a hundred grand on this thing.\u201d And he got the freaking top of the line Tesla. We did the math for him because we\u2019re bastards and it was like $15 million or something like that had he just invested in Tesla the second he loved the product.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the moral of the story is like if you love something and this is going to happen over and over again for decades to come, if you\u2019re like, \u201cHey, Claude is my shit. I use it every single day. I think it\u2019s great because of X, Y, and Z.\u201d And they go public, set it and forget it. Come in, whatever you can afford, I don\u2019t care if it\u2019s $100 or $1,000 or $100,000, it\u2019s meaningful at the end of the day. I don\u2019t know. That\u2019s my reaction.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, it\u2019s great advice. I mean, look, that\u2019s part of the reason and I have gotten so much shit from this by some VCs, I won\u2019t mention their names, who are just like, \u201cWhat?\u201d Because they\u2019ve got their 30 slide, our proprietary investment thesis shit that they show pension funds and stuff, right? And I\u2019m like, I just try to invest in stuff that I will use every day and it\u2019s not true for everything, like Commonwealth Fusion Systems, I\u2019m not using them every day, SpaceX, outside of Starlink, but it\u2019s like there are exceptions. But it\u2019s like with something like this, where it\u2019s like I am eating close to half of my protein calories every day of this stuff and I\u2019m like, \u201cI should just invest in the company.\u201d It\u2019s just like that is what makes sense. You know the first stock I ever bought? This was when I was like \u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Dildonics. I mean, something you use every day.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Teledildonics. Yeah. Can\u2019t go wrong.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>For people that don\u2019t know what Dildonics is\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that\u2019ll be another random show.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Show notes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Show notes. It was Pixar.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. My dad bought me some book on stock investing. Honestly, I couldn\u2019t make any sense of it because it was getting into like price to earning and this and that, earning per share. And I was like, \u201cAh, I don\u2019t really understand this.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s so cool your dad bought you that book.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It was cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s cool. It\u2019s cool. It was his way of showing love. We can\u2019t all do it the way necessarily people want to receive it. But in any case, the point of that was I loved comics. I tracked comics and animation and I saw <em>Toy Story<\/em>, number one, I even saw shorts and I was like, \u201cThat is the future.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I know that\u2019s the future.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>And when I was whatever, 15 or something, first stock, Pixar.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Dude, that\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I have the <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/i.ebayimg.com\/images\/g\/Fl0AAOSwrudn1hUa\/s-l1600.webp\">original shareholder poster<\/a> they mailed out.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No way. Oh, shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Like Lasseter and Jobs and stuff.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, dude, that\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah. And for me it\u2019s like, look at your credit card statement. Do you know what I mean? I mean, this is not investment advice. I\u2019m just saying this is the way I personally approach it so informational purposes only, but it\u2019s like, yeah, if you\u2019re spending hundreds of dollars on like Amazon and Amazon Prime, it\u2019s like, well, maybe, who knows?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Totally. I mean that\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Are you going to be spending more or less on that in five years? Just forget about the market, forget about analysts, like you personally. Will you be spending more or less on this in three or five years time?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>That\u2019s exactly right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Okay. We\u2019ll put something in the intro on, this is not investment advice, but it\u2019s like this stuff, you don\u2019t need to be a quant hedge fund manager.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>And to be fair, when you look at Buffett\u2019s portfolio and the things that he\u2019s bought over the years, it\u2019s the consumer staples and the things that we\u2019re just like, he\u2019s like, \u201cYes, more people will want and drink Coca-Cola in the future. It\u2019s a fantastic brand. The margins are impeccable. It\u2019s a well-run business. I know the CEO.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Not prone to disruption.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. In downturns, guess what? People still drink Coke.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>He\u2019s also a clever bastard though. He\u2019s been very good with his like, \u201cAw, shucks, aw, shucks, grandpa,\u201d branding. He\u2019s very good at that, but that dude is a stone-cold killer in terms of Geico is a cash machine and being the lender of first resort.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Smart as shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>When shit\u2019s going sideways, people call Uncle Buffett and he\u2019s like, \u201cSure, here\u2019s my offer, take or leave.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>He\u2019s so smart.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>But yes, very bright guy. What have we missed?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>The only thing I would say is that\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Teledildonics.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yes, that. I relaunched if you want to learn about the latest tech and AI news, I relaunched Digg.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You were showing me some numbers. That\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>It\u2019s crazy. We went from 20,000 people a week using it to now we have close to 500,000 so it\u2019s been growing quite a bit and it\u2019s pulling across the entire zeitgeist of the web. So we\u2019re like, we don\u2019t want to start another social network. So we pulled from X and we\u2019ve pulled from a few other feeds and we\u2019ve been putting in like videos from YouTube and TikTok and others and it\u2019s just been a fun little hobby. It\u2019s a fun hobby and it\u2019s like doing millions of pages a month and I\u2019m proud of that. It\u2019s awesome to see it working again. So it\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>D-I-G-G.com.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>D-I-G-G.com, @KevinRose on Instagram, and, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Sweet. What should I say? I guess tim.blog, you can find 1,000 plus blog plus. If you want to read about my cadaver on the table, my book sales as a result of AI, that is a crazy blog post. I don\u2019t even know if you were aware of this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, I\u2019ve not seen this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, yeah. All format book sales\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Oh, I saw that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Yeah, isn\u2019t it crazy?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Went down.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, you look at the graph and it\u2019s like stable annuity, stable annuity, stable annuity, very predictable. And then in 2013, because what happened in November 2022, ChatGPT 3.5, and you see a slip by negative 5 percent, then you see a slip by like, I\u2019m making up these numbers, but they\u2019re close, negative 28 percent, then it\u2019s like negative 49 percent.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>But it turns out you\u2019re going to be okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>I\u2019ll be fine. But no, no, but the implications are pretty interesting and now if we continue the pace in 2026 down like 67 percent.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Holy shit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>These are sort of compounding in the wrong direction, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>It\u2019s not quite the right terminology to use, but you get it. So stuff to think about. People can check that out. If you search AI nonfiction, Tim Ferriss, that\u2019s a blog post that\u2019s actually a pretty interesting read, but on the less dystopian view, ultimately the message isn\u2019t dystopian. Tim.blog, @TimFerriss on Instagram @Tferriss, T-F-E-R-R-I-S-S, on Twitter. But honestly, I\u2019m not so active on the socials because I\u2019ve deleted those from my phone for a couple of years. You\u2019re listening to the podcast so I don\u2019t have to sell the podcast. Oh, Five Bullet Friday, my diary.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Can you add one?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Can I add one what?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s like six bullets.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Well, every once in a while, if I\u2019m lazy, there are, I\u2019d say\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Four bullets?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>No, if I\u2019m lazy and I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t want to do it.\u201d Because I still do this thing myself.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>I gotta pee. I really gotta go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Hold on one sec. We\u2019re almost done. Relax, you and your prostate.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, it\u2019s not the prostate. It\u2019s the fact that you gave me tequila.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Oh, I gave you tequila. You were over served? Hold on a second. Just give me two fucking seconds, you old man. You old bastard. Now I\u2019m going to make this really long.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>No, don\u2019t. Come on.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>So yeah, Five Bullet Friday. Every once in a while\u2014you did this to yourself\u2014turns into Six Bullet Saturday if I\u2019m just not feeling it. But yeah, two million subscribers, it\u2019s free, easy to unsubscribe. Tim.blog\/Friday and that\u2019s all I got.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>All right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>You want to go pee, old man?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Yeah, I will.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>All right, good to see you, bud.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Kevin Rose: <\/strong>Good to see you. Love you brother.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: <\/strong>Love you too.<\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<h3 id=\"Random-Show-July-2026-legal-conditions\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">DUE TO SOME HEADACHES IN THE PAST, PLEASE NOTE LEGAL CONDITIONS:<\/h3>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Tim Ferriss owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of The Tim Ferriss Show podcast, with all rights reserved, as well as his right of publicity.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>WHAT YOU\u2019RE WELCOME TO DO:<\/em>\u00a0<em>You are welcome to share the below transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles (e.g.,\u00a0<\/em>The New York Times<em>,\u00a0<\/em>LA Times<em>,\u00a0<\/em>The Guardian<em>), on your personal website, in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., Medium), and\/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include attribution to \u201cThe Tim Ferriss Show\u201d and link back to the tim.blog\/podcast URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>WHAT IS NOT ALLOWED:<\/em>\u00a0<em>No one is authorized to copy any portion of the podcast content or use Tim Ferriss\u2019 name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another\u2019s products or services. For the sake of clarity, media outlets are permitted to use photos of Tim Ferriss from\u00a0<\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/media\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><em>the media room on tim.blog<\/em><\/a><em>\u00a0or (obviously) license photos of Tim Ferriss from Getty Images, etc.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Please enjoy this transcript of another rousing edition of The Random Show with my good friend\u00a0Kevin Rose. We reunite over tequila to talk Zen retreats, [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":12025,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[13],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-13372","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growth"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13372","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=13372"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13372\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/12025"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=13372"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=13372"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=13372"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}