{"id":13609,"date":"2026-08-22T00:40:55","date_gmt":"2026-08-22T04:40:55","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-relationship-tools-that-work-esther-perel-brene-brown-dr-sue-johnson-terry-real-and-more-on-conflict-repair-and-lasting-love-880\/"},"modified":"2026-08-22T00:40:55","modified_gmt":"2026-08-22T04:40:55","slug":"the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-relationship-tools-that-work-esther-perel-brene-brown-dr-sue-johnson-terry-real-and-more-on-conflict-repair-and-lasting-love-880","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-relationship-tools-that-work-esther-perel-brene-brown-dr-sue-johnson-terry-real-and-more-on-conflict-repair-and-lasting-love-880\/","title":{"rendered":"The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Relationship Tools That Work \u2014 Esther Perel, Bren\u00e9 Brown, Dr. Sue Johnson, Terry Real, and More on Conflict, Repair, and Lasting Love (#880)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Please enjoy this transcript of <a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/08\/19\/relationship-tools\/\">a special episode<\/a> devoted to one deceptively simple question: How do you stay close to your partner over time through the inevitable exhaustion, misunderstanding, conflict, disappointment, and change?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/08\/19\/relationship-tools\/#:~:text=All%20episodes-,Show%20Notes,-Connect%20with%20Esther\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Books, people, tools, and resources mentioned in the interview<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/08\/20\/relationship-tools-transcript\/#relationship-tools-compilation-legal-conditions\">Legal conditions\/copyright information<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"podcast-player\">\n<div class=\"podcast-player-inner-wrap\">\n<p>Relationship Tools That Work \u2014 Esther Perel, Bren\u00e9 Brown, Dr. Sue Johnson, Terry Real, and More on Conflict, Repair, and Lasting Love<\/p>\n<p><noscript><iframe src=\"https:\/\/www.art19.com\/shows\/58dacbdc-646e-4585-9914-19c3de11d1ba\/episodes\/a147406e-b82d-4f2b-81e4-decf259647ab\/embed?type=micro\" style=\"width: 100%; height: 30px; border: 0 none;\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Additional podcast platforms<\/h3>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Listen to this episode on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/880-relationship-tools-that-work-esther-perel-bren%C3%A9\/id863897795?i=1000784414758\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/2oFk1cP5IId357vU0OgqEX\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/+AAKebsWL-Ck\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcastaddict.com\/podcast\/2031148#\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Podcast Addict<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/pca.st\/timferriss\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Pocket Casts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castbox.fm\/channel\/id1059468?country=us\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castbox<\/a>,\u00a0<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/music.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLuu6fDad2eJyWPm9dQfuorm2uuYHBZDCB\">YouTube Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/9814f3cc-1dc5-4003-b816-44a8eb6bf666\/the-tim-ferriss-show\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Amazon Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.audible.com\/podcast\/The-Tim-Ferriss-Show\/B08K58QX5W\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Audible<\/a>, or on your favorite podcast platform.<\/strong><\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 2+ hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!<\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>ESTHER PEREL<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Esther Perel:<\/strong> So, this is a question from Gregoire Frifri via Facebook. \u201cI would love to ask her how to foster marriage longevity. Any exercises, routines, or habits would be great, especially around fostering deeper emotional relationships.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That is the first basic \u2013 appreciation. Simply saying a lot of nice things, not taking things for granted, not forgetting to say please and thank you just because it\u2019s the person that you live with, making compliments, holding hands, kissing, stroking, sending sweet notes, buying flowers, preparing breakfast, bringing the coffee to bed \u2013 all those sweet things that people do that basically let you know that they live inside of you, that you\u2019re thinking of them even when they\u2019re not there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">These daily appreciations go a long way, and sometimes, it\u2019s a real diligent effort to keep doing them. And then, I am a strong fan of letter writing. I think that when you fly away, when you\u2019re away, sitting in a caf\u00e9 when you just have a moment, drop a note that\u2019s not just on the birthdays and on the anniversaries, but your own musings about you, your lives together, your dreams, where you\u2019re going, how you met, what you remember, what you fancy \u2013 that is very much the telling of the story of the couple. There\u2019s a lot of intimacy in there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Touch is a major experience of intimacy. I think when you do that, humor, and things that encourage the other person in which you recognize them at their most authentic \u2013 go do this thing. This is similar to something you really like. Take a few more days. \u201cYou always wanted to take this class \u2013 go take this class.\u201d These are ways in which you encourage the other person to be the best version of themselves, and vice versa. Be your best version of yourself with them. The things that are really basic are what makes a relationship sustain itself and be more nurturing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Next, Alicia Kinea Eidelberger asks via Facebook, \u201cHow do you lessen arguments in your marriage?\u201d Look: I think it\u2019s all about the art of speaking and listening. Now, there was a sculpture a few years back by Bruce Nauman, and it was a World Peace product. He had 23-inch monitors with faces of the most diverse group of people \u2013 diverse races, ethnicities, genders, ages, all of it \u2013 and every single person \u2013 every face was saying, \u201cI\u2019ll talk, and you listen. You\u2019ll talk, and I\u2019ll listen. They\u2019ll talk, and we listen. You\u2019ll talk, and we listen.\u201d And, it just showed you the robustness of this most difficult art, which is often harder than speaking, I would say. But, to some people, speaking may be the hardest thing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In a relationship, you can often get the daily hassles in which you are grinding at each other, and in which there\u2019s a friction going on. Don\u2019t sweat the small things. That\u2019s probably really important in terms of how people deal with arguments in a relationship. I would say don\u2019t complain, ask. Behind every criticism, there\u2019s often a wish. If you believe that your partner has done something wrong \u2013 that they didn\u2019t pay a bill on time or anything \u2013 and you wish that they had done it right, instead of acting them to correct it, you basically tell them they can never do it well, that they\u2019re doing this on purpose \u2013 just ask them to do it better next time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Rather than \u201cWould it kill you?\u201d, something as simple as, \u201cDo you think that next time, you could set a monthly alert so that you don\u2019t forget?\u201d It\u2019s a very different tone. It\u2019s a very different way of relating to the person. There\u2019s no contempt in that one. We know from the research of John Gottman that contempt is one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Actually, I\u2019m going to give you the four horses because they\u2019re really important. They are criticism, contempt, stonewalling, and defensiveness. Those four are pretty much the killers in the land of arguments and relationship decline.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Try not to talk with categoricals of always and never, all or nothing. That is probably one of the most important changes in vocabulary. Banish them. \u201cI always have to ask you.\u201d \u201cYou never do this.\u201d The moment you say, \u201cYou never,\u201d the other person is going to come up with the one time that they know and that they\u2019ve done it, so that they can defeat your argument rather than understand that you\u2019re asking them to do it more often, which is exactly why I say, \u201cAsk, don\u2019t complain.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Add some humor. There\u2019s nothing that\u2019s going to defuse your arguments more than just putting some perspective into it and not taking yourself so seriously. Show empathy. At the end of the day, assume that your partner has the same interests as you \u2013 to solve the stresses in your relationship. For that to happen, it\u2019s important that both of you understand and appreciate the other person\u2019s point of view. Do you really think the other person wants you to purposefully be annoyed, hurt you, or let you down? Probably not.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s all of that shift that takes you out of relationships that are mired in bickering, chronic low-intensity warfare, or high conflict. There\u2019s a range there. Imagine I ask you, \u201cHas your arguing turned toxic?\u201d Does your partner keep telling you that you can never do it right, or that they can never do it right by you, that every little conversation about who should set the table will end up in a blowout about how dysfunctional your relationship is, or that two minutes into a fight, one of you is saying you should get a divorce or break up? That\u2019s what I\u2019m calling a high-conflict couple.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The opposite of the argument is coming in and saying, \u201cI want to listen to what you have to say. I want to apologize. What can I do to make this better?\u201d Not \u201cWhat can you do to make this better?\u201d Shift it around, and you\u2019ll have magic happening.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>BREN\u00c9 BROWN<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Bren\u00e9 Brown:<\/strong> The other two hacks that I think have saved our marriage besides just showing up and using some of these things, like what\u2019s working, what was hard is the 80\/20. So everyone says marriage should be 50\/50. It\u2019s the biggest crock of bullshit I\u2019ve ever heard. It\u2019s never 50\/50. Ever. And so what we do is we quantify where we are. So if Steve comes home and he\u2019ll be like, \u201cI got 20.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Just in terms of energy.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Bren\u00e9 Brown:<\/strong> Just energy, investment, kindness, patience, \u201cI\u2019m at 20.\u201d And I\u2019ll be like, \u201cI\u2019ll cover you. I got you, brother. I\u2019ll pull the 80.\u201d Sometimes we come home, which we have done a lot, and my mom has been sick, and I\u2019ll say, \u201cI\u2019ve got 10,\u201d and like, Steve two days ago said, \u201cI\u2019m riding a solid 25.\u201d So we know that we have to sit down at the table any time we have less than a hundred combined and figure out a plan of kindness toward each other.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Oh, I love that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Bren\u00e9 Brown:<\/strong> Yeah, because the thing is, marriage is not something that\u2019s 50\/50. A partnership works when you can carry their 20 or they can carry your 20. And that when you both just have 20, you have a plan where you don\u2019t hurt each other.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, you\u2019re threadbare, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Bren\u00e9 Brown:<\/strong> Yeah. And so what we\u2019ll say is I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019ve got 10,\u201d and he\u2019ll be like, \u201cI got maybe 25.\u201d We\u2019re like, \u201cPut all the groceries that are supposed to be great and healthy in the freezer; we\u2019re ordering out. Get the housekeeper here an extra day, and we\u2019re canceling anything with people that we really actually don\u2019t like.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So how can we create some buffer in the system?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Bren\u00e9 Brown:<\/strong> We do that. So like, and then we\u2019ll like a day or two later I\u2019m like, he\u2019ll be like, \u201cI\u2019m riding to 60,\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, my God, work is kicking my ass. I\u2019m still at 20.\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cI got you, but we\u2019re a spare of 20. So let\u2019s ask Charlie if he wants to skip water polo practice today and let\u2019s all turn in at 8:00.\u201d Like, huge. The other thing I would say too, that now I\u2019m thinking about that, is we made a determination very early there\u2019s kid-focused families, parent-focused families, and family-focused families. We\u2019re a family-focused family.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So that means that if you want to do water polo, Eagle Scouts, tennis, and skeet shooting, and then that comes to the family, and the family agrees what will keep the family healthy. Like we can, you know, I\u2019ve got a book launch, I\u2019ve got this, Steve\u2019s got patients, he\u2019s taking on others, you know, he\u2019s a pediatrician, he\u2019s doing this. So what works for our family right now is you can do two extracurriculars and I\u2019m going to have a two-week tour, not a four-week tour, but we put the family as the system that we serve. It\u2019s not the kids at the parents\u2019 cost or the parents at the kids\u2019 cost. It\u2019s the family and it is remarkable.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How do you weigh, if you do it all the voting system, so to speak, right? So if you all come to the table, does everyone have equal vote in the decision-making process with respect?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Bren\u00e9 Brown:<\/strong> No. This is a dictatorship! Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. No. Like, we don\u2019t even bullshit around that. It\u2019s like when my kids, like if I say like, \u201cOh shit,\u201d my kids are like, \u201cOoh, you can\u2019t say that.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cI say anything I want. You can\u2019t say that. And when you\u2019re old enough, you can do whatever you want.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u201cYou get your cursing license!\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Bren\u00e9 Brown:<\/strong> Yeah, right now I can totally do that. Watch me.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>BRAD FELD<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So if we\u2019re talking about links and breaking these artificial causal links, let\u2019s talk about another, what seems like a pattern interrupt, and that is your life dinners. Can you describe what these are?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Brad Feld:<\/strong> Yeah. This was another thing that came out of me and Amy\u2019s weekend in Rhode Island. So she said to me, as we\u2019re walking, \u201cI want to have dinner with you once a month. Not a date night, but let\u2019s do dinner once a month. Let\u2019s do it on the first night of every month. And I just want a commitment for that.\u201d And I hem and haw, \u201cOh, gee, I don\u2019t know whether I\u2019ll be in Boulder or Boston or New York or the Bay Area or whatever.\u201d And she looked at me and she said, \u201cDo you have a calendar, an online calendar?\u201d Knowing full well I did, of course. And I said, \u201cYeah, I have an online calendar.\u201d She says, \u201cDoes it have the ability for you to make a recurring calendar appointment?\u201d I said, \u201cYeah, the online calendar lets me do that.\u201d She says, \u201cHow about if you make an online recurring calendar appointment from 6:00 p.m. Colorado time to 10:00 p.m. Colorado time on the first day of a month and have it repeat forever?\u201d I said, \u201cOkay, I guess I can do that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So we did that. And so every month on the first day of the month, we have what we call life dinner. Now, 20 years of life dinners later, so what is that, 1,000-something life dinners, which is awesome, by the way, we have a little flexibility. There are definitely nights where we will have it on the second or the third because something\u2019s going on. But we really commit to it. We used to go out to dinner. Now, a lot of times we just do it at home. Time of COVID, we for sure do at home. We often, not always, but often start with a gift exchange, and the gifts could be trivial little things. Once she gave me a remote control fart machine. She\u2019s picked up a lot of jewelry and art from it over the years and books. One dinner she gave me a Range Rover. So it\u2019s a full spectrum of little to big.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I really hope it was the same dinner that you gave her the \u2014 oh, no, you didn\u2019t give her the fart machine. That would have been less popular. Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Brad Feld:<\/strong> I think the Range Rover was to make up for the fart machine, but the fart machine was years earlier. And we sit down, and if you\u2019re a fan of software development, and you know what Agile is, we essentially do \u2014 the first half is a retrospective of the previous month, and the second half is sprint planning for the next month. So again, very deliberately not a date night. We have plenty of those. This is let\u2019s talk, each of us, you go first, or I go first, doesn\u2019t matter, about the last month, and what happened, and what was good, and what was bad, and what we were unhappy about, and what we wish we\u2019d done differently, and what we regret, and what we\u2019re really satisfied with, anything. Just retrospective.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This powerfully interesting \u2014 because we started to learn that if Amy did something that really annoyed me on the 21st of the month, in the moment, I didn\u2019t have to react and cause us to have a three-hour personal meltdown on the 21st of the month. I could wait nine more days or 10 more days, and it could be \u2014 11 more days. It could be part of our life dinner. And it gave us a marker for being able to resolve the conflicts that we would have with each other or express things, positive and negative, that we hadn\u2019t said in the moment.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The forward sprint planning part of it is not go through the calendar for the next month, but talk about goals, aspirations, what we might want to do differently, what we\u2019re feeling in the moment that\u2019s making us uncomfortable about the future, what we\u2019re not afraid of, what we\u2019re worried about happening in the future, what\u2019s causing us, in the moment, real anxiety about the future. And anybody out there has had any therapy or done meditation, literally just naming the thing oftentimes gets rid of a lot of the anxiety. Just labeling it, just calling it out, and saying it out loud.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so these dinners, sometimes the conversation, the life dinner part of the conversation might go five or 10 minutes, and sometimes it might go three hours. And sometimes there was laughter and sometimes there were tears and sometimes there were both. And it\u2019s just such now, 20 some odd years later, a comfortable way to reground ourselves as a couple, roughly every 30 days, in what is a very, very challenging and complicated world.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JIM DETHMER<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> What are some of the candid or uncomfortable conversations that are the most important to have, if any come to mind, aside from what we\u2019ve been discussing?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Jim Dethmer:<\/strong> \u00a0So as you look at your close relationships, whether it be with your parents or with your siblings or children, this idea of, are we willing to be candid? Now I want to say something here, Tim, because people misunderstand this. They think that if I\u2019m below the line, if we keep using that language, then people will say, \u201cI don\u2019t have a problem being candid. God, you ask anybody in my world, they\u2019ll tell you I\u2019m candid. I tell it like it is.\u201d But what they\u2019re really saying is they\u2019re kind of living a scorched earth policy where they tell the truth all the time, but they\u2019re rigid and righteous about being attached to their truth. So we don\u2019t call that candor. What we call candor begins with the ability to differentiate facts from stories, facts from data, facts of what is totally unarguable. Facts are that which all reasonable people would agree to. Facts, the facts of life, stories are judgments, opinions, beliefs, interpretations that we make up about the facts. So for example, or that typical thing would be, I walk in the house, Debbie\u2019s standing there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Fact, a video camera would record that the corners of her mouth are turned down slightly in what one could call a frown. That\u2019s a fact. Video camera would record it. Now my mind starts making up stories. Debbie\u2019s upset with me. I did something wrong. She\u2019s going to criticize me. And now I start reacting to the stories, defending, justifying, explaining, reacting to the stories, even though the stories are all made up in my mind. So candor, practicing conscious candor, first you differentiate fact from story, and then you reveal your stories, holding them lightly. So from below the line, I want to be right about my stories and prove that I\u2019m right because my ego identification believes it can only survive if it\u2019s right. So what that would look like is from below line, I\u2019d say, \u201cWhat are you upset about? I\u2019m only 10 minutes late and I know I forgot the milk, but God, I was very busy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So now I\u2019m revealing my story that she\u2019s upset in a reactive modality while holding tightly to my story that A, she is upset at me and B, she shouldn\u2019t be. That\u2019s truth-telling. That\u2019s not what we\u2019re talking about at all. Candor, I differentiate fact from story, and here\u2019s what this might look like. I walk in the house and let\u2019s say I\u2019m above the line and present, which I might not be. I might say something like this, \u201cHey, when I look over, it looks like you\u2019re upset. I\u2019m making up the story that you\u2019re upset and rather than get all scared and reactive to that, first thing I do is just want to tell you I\u2019m making up that story and I want to check it out with you. Are you upset? And by the way, when I make up the story that you\u2019re upset, I noticed I get defensive.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Furthermore, probably what I really get scared because I don\u2019t want you to be pissed off at me, but I\u2019m going to reveal myself to you, Debbie, not from being right. This act of candor is an act of incredible vulnerability. I\u2019m going to let you know me. I say all the time. I\u2019m going to let you know what\u2019s going on on Planet Jim. My thoughts, beliefs, interpretations, wants, desires, so you can know me. Not so that I can prove I\u2019m right.\u201d And by the way, this kind of candor goes hand in hand with conscious listening.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">People always want to say, \u201cI want a more candid relationship with my partner.\u201d I say, \u201cGreat. Before you start revealing, start listening. Start becoming a person to whom others will reveal themselves candidly because you see them and you hear them and you get them. Then as they feel safe to reveal themselves, you\u2019ll find that the relationship becomes more safe for you to reveal yourself.\u201d So candor and conscious listening go hand in glove. But again, it\u2019s a cocommitment, right? Debbie and I said we want to remove all barriers to closeness. One of the barriers to closeness is not revealing ourselves to each other. It\u2019s so easy to hide out for fear of being rejected, for fear of being criticized, the risk. And Debbie and I had been practicing candor for decades, Tim, and there\u2019s almost always some edge of candor where I could reveal a thought or I could reveal a judgment.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In our case, specifically about our children, because it\u2019s our second relationship. Debbie has four boys. I have two girls. Well, sometimes I have judgments about her boys. It\u2019s always risky to say to her, \u201cHey, I just want to tell you. I\u2019ve got a judgment coming up in me about so-and-so,\u201d because she cares about her boys and she\u2019s irrationally involved with them just like I am with my girls. Every time I practice vulnerability in candor in my intimate relationship, there\u2019s a modicum of fear that comes up because who knows how she\u2019s going to react. We do have decades now of practicing, so pretty good chance that we\u2019ll work it through. So that\u2019s what candor is. Differentiate fact from story, hold your story likely, and reveal to the other for the sake of being known, not for proving you\u2019re right, and practice deeply listening so the other person trusts you enough to reveal themselves. That\u2019s a short primer on candor.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>SHEILA HEEN<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Sheila Heen:<\/strong> My guess is that you\u2019re familiar with research by John Gottman up in Seattle?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I have some familiarity, but please provide an overview.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Sheila Heen:<\/strong> An overview and just a connection to the question that you just asked. He invites married couples into his lab, and he invites them to talk about an issue that\u2019s stressful between them, to have a difficult conversation, essentially. Hooks them up to heart monitors and videotapes and all of that. Then he says that he can watch for five minutes and predict with their different numbers based on his different studies, but 90-ish, 90, 92 percent accuracy, whether they\u2019ll divorce within three or five years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Part of the reason I name this is that, for me, it really says it\u2019s not just that we have difficult conversations in our most important relationships. Those conversations <em>are<\/em> the relationship. That if we find a way to have them productively or constructively, then the relationship will thrive, whether it\u2019s a personal or professional relationship, and\/or is where we start to disengage because you just don\u2019t get it and you won\u2019t listen, and the relationship starts to fray.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What Gottman is listening for are what are the indicators that he\u2019s listening for that tell him which direction it\u2019s going to go. One of them is that as a conversation gets heated and starts to escalate, one of the spouses will often make a joke, but the purpose of the joke is that it\u2019s an invitation to step outside this argument and to see it for what it is, to see what\u2019s happening, which is that this is the conversation we usually have and how it usually goes. So often it\u2019s a little bit of an inside joke, but humor \u2014 by the way, I listened to your conversation with Anne Lamott, who I absolutely adore.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> She\u2019s a treasure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Sheila Heen:<\/strong> She is a treasure. And what does she call it? Laughter is carbonated \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Holiness.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Sheila Heen:<\/strong> Holiness, yeah. So laughter also in the brain just gives us a little bit of instant perspective that we suddenly see the absurdity of our own behavior in many cases. So it\u2019s an invitation to just name what\u2019s happening. It\u2019s like a meta move. For instance, with my husband, who also teaches negotiation, by the way \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I\u2019d love it to be a fly on the wall for some of those.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Sheila Heen:<\/strong> Yeah, you can imagine. So we fight about how we fight. That\u2019s the fight we usually have.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> This is like my friends\u2019 kids. My friends are therapists, and their kids are like, \u201cStop therapizing me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Sheila Heen:<\/strong> Exactly.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: \u201c<\/strong>Stop therapizing me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Sheila Heen:<\/strong> Exactly. So we\u2019re like, \u201cYeah, you\u2019re not listening. Oh, well, those difficult conversations, huh?\u201d Yeah. So that\u2019s the fight we have.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss: \u201c<\/strong>Stop putting your BATNA in my face!\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Sheila Heen:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That\u2019s the Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement, folks. Inside joke.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Sheila Heen:<\/strong> Exactly. That was very nice inside baseball joke. Yeah. Waving your BATNA around in a romantic relationship is not usually a successful strategy. You know, there are a lot of people who\u2019d find me very appealing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One of the jokes that he and I make when we have the wherewithal to do it is like, \u201cWhy will you not just admit I am good and you are bad? That is what this is about, right? It\u2019s about who needs to apologize, whose fault this is, et cetera.\u201d So as things escalate, your ability to just name that underlying dynamic sometimes makes the other person laugh, and you can step out of it for a moment. Then that gives you the opportunity to say, \u201cLook, obviously we\u2019ve had this conversation several times. I\u2019m not understanding why,\u201d fill in the blank. \u201cI\u2019m not understanding why what I\u2019m suggesting doesn\u2019t make sense. Help me, genuinely, help me understand that.\u201d Or \u201cI\u2019m not understanding what you\u2019re most worried about here.\u201d That often helps.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It needs to be a genuine ask. You can\u2019t say like, \u201cWhat are you worried about?\u201d Because that\u2019s really a hot question. It\u2019s like, you shouldn\u2019t be worried about anything. Why are you being so stupid as to be worrying about something? As long as you can step outside, see, oh, I\u2019m not being curious right now. And I don\u2019t have to pretend that I agree to do it. I think that\u2019s really the key. And I don\u2019t have to say there\u2019s no truth, but from where I sit, I can only see some of the pieces of the puzzle. You have the other pieces of the puzzle. Putting those pieces on the table for discussion is how we figure out what we have to work with. Then at the end of the day, we still might not agree about this, but it might open up new options for how we handle it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>DR. SUE JOHNSON<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Could you walk us through what a hold me tight conversation is?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Sue Johnson:<\/strong> A hold me tight conversation, very briefly, is a bonding conversation. The tricky part is that, as adults, some of us have never seen this conversation. So it\u2019s a dance that is foreign to us. We\u2019ve never had it with our own parents. We\u2019ve never had it with siblings. We\u2019ve never had it with previous lovers. And we get married, or we get committed to a partner, and it\u2019s reasonable that we don\u2019t know how to go there because many of us, it\u2019s just not a drama that we\u2019ve ever seen enacted.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A hold me tight conversation is where one person is able to open up and reach for the other person and share vulnerabilities; talk about their needs and fears in a way that pulls the other person close. It helps the other person reach back and respond.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Could you give any examples of phrasing, or questions \u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Sue Johnson:<\/strong> Sure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014 or guidelines you provide?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Sue Johnson:<\/strong> Of course.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I know I would love to know, and I suspect others would too.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Sue Johnson:<\/strong> Well, when you don\u2019t trust, you don\u2019t feel safe, and you\u2019ve never seen a hold me tight conversation, the way it usually goes just naturally as human beings, I catch myself doing this with my husband, if I\u2019m upset about something, like he\u2019s been going to bed very early, and that means that we don\u2019t have our snuggle time, we don\u2019t have our little chat time, okay, and it doesn\u2019t seem to bother him at all. It doesn\u2019t seem to bother him this isn\u2019t happening. So this will go on for a couple of weeks. And even though I\u2019m doing this work, there\u2019s a certain point where I start to get self-protective and I start to blame him in my head. And I say, \u201cHe\u2019s always too busy. He\u2019s got his lists. He\u2019s got lists, and he\u2019s a man and he\u2019s got lists. And all he cares about is his list of tasks. And he\u2019s just into problem-solving. And he doesn\u2019t think about me at all.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And this dialogue would go in my head. So I turn to him and I say, \u201cYou\u2019re going to bed very early these days.\u201d Listen to my voice. It\u2019s the emotional music. He says, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not,\u201d because he hears the threat in my tone, I say, \u201cYes, you are. And you\u2019ve been going to bed for weeks. And I guess it doesn\u2019t matter to you that we\u2019re not having those close moments.\u201d And listen to me, I\u2019m on the attack and we are acutely sensitive as human beings to signs of rejection, or abandonment by the people we love, acutely sensitive. That\u2019s how we\u2019re wired. So he hears that he\u2019s blown it. He hears it that I\u2019m rejecting him. I\u2019m telling him he\u2019s done something wrong. So he says, \u201cI don\u2019t want to talk about this right now.\u201d I say, \u201cOh, let me guess, you have to go to bed because you\u2019re so tired.\u201d Right. So we\u2019re off. Right? Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That is the typical demand-withdraw, demand-defend dialogue that you\u2019ll see in a distressed couple. And it\u2019s totally predictable. You can also have it with your kids. I can remember a glorious argument I had in Starbucks with my adolescent son that was just a perfect example of the way distressed couples talk to each other. So I\u2019m blaming and pointing fingers and he\u2019s rolling his eyeballs and basically telling me what a dreadful mother I am. So you can have it with anyone, but with partners it\u2019s very predictable, and it has everyone feeling completely threatened and unsafe and unable to dance together. If you shift that into a hold me tight conversation, the way it would go is that I would be more able to tune into my own needs, more aware of my own needs, accepting of my own needs. And I would realize, oh, I\u2019m really missing those conversations with John. We\u2019ve been married for 32 years. We\u2019re both very strong people, so it\u2019s been quite an adventure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, I think, oh, I\u2019m missing those relationships with John and maybe he doesn\u2019t miss them. And oh, that makes me feel really somehow anxious and uncomfortable if he doesn\u2019t miss them, because the big question in love relationships is, are you there for me? Do I matter to you? Can I count on you? Maybe those conversations don\u2019t matter to him, but they really matter to me. So I am aware, on a different level, of me and I\u2019m specifying, that scares me a bit that maybe these conversations don\u2019t matter to him. I can tune into my own emotions. And then I take the risk and reach for him and say to him, \u201cI\u2019m open.\u201d I say to him, \u201cYou know what? We haven\u2019t been having our usual talks late at night and somehow, it doesn\u2019t look like you miss them. And somehow that makes me feel really uncomfortable. It almost feels like I\u2019m not sure that that closeness matters to you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so I could get angry about it, but actually what\u2019s happening is it scares me a bit because I need those conversations. Now I\u2019ve talked about my fears and my needs. I can only do that if I have some model that it\u2019s okay to do that, that doesn\u2019t mean I\u2019m a wimp, or mentally ill, or weak, or pathetic. From my point of view, it\u2019s strength to do that. And that\u2019s what we teach: I need strength to do that. And that\u2019s what securely attached people can do. They can reach from a position of vulnerability. So I say that to him, and that pulls him; he says, \u201cOh, you\u2019re right. Yeah. Yeah. I do want those conversations. I\u2019ve just been so exhausted and I\u2019ve been doing this and I haven\u2019t wanted to tell you how stressed out I am.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So then it becomes reciprocal. I say, \u201cOh, I didn\u2019t know that you were so stressed out about this decision we\u2019ve made and that it\u2019s taking up all your energy and you\u2019re worried about it.\u201d So then we start to have an open, responsive, engaged conversation where we can share vulnerabilities, comfort each other, and you\u2019re literally better at tuning in to each other. And I think that\u2019s because when I feel safe, I can tune into you. When I think about the people I can dance with in tango really well, it\u2019s the people I feel emotionally safe with. And I know that there\u2019s no mistakes, because mistakes don\u2019t matter, we\u2019re just playing. Then I relax. I\u2019m in my body. I tune into their cues and we move together naturally. So, that\u2019s what happens. And it\u2019s a hold me tight conversation.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And it cascades. Each time you have this conversation, your nervous system goes, \u201cAh, this is comfort. This is home. This is safety. This is what I need.\u201d And you see your partner as a resource. You see your partner as somebody who can provide this safety, comfort, caring, reassurance, social support, if you want to use a psychological formal term for it. You see your partner as this person and your partner connects, and you know how to do this dance. This dance is innately rewarding. It creates joy in people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You don\u2019t have to persuade people to keep doing it, like going to the gym, or meditation, or their communication skills. People will do this. Once they know how to do it, they\u2019ll keep doing it. And that\u2019s why I think we get good follow-up results, because once you start having these conversations and it\u2019s very moving sometimes to see people\u2019s response, like people will start to cry and say things like, when they discover these hold me tight conversations, people will say, I\u2019m thinking of one man who said, \u201cI never knew that you could talk to somebody like this. I never knew that you could ask for these things and that she wants me to be vulnerable to her. I never knew that. I never saw that growing up. I didn\u2019t know people did that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then he wept and he turned to the therapist and said, \u201cI\u2019ve been alone all my life, haven\u2019t I?\u201d And that \u2014 what attachment science tells us is that emotional isolation is toxic for human beings. We found out that in the pandemic, but we still don\u2019t get it. I wish we would get it on a different level. It\u2019s toxic for human beings. It\u2019s not who we are. And when people start to have these hold me tight conversations, all kinds of amazing things happen. They don\u2019t just understand how relationships can be and how you can shape relationships, don\u2019t have to just have them happen to you, you can shape love, they understand something very deep about themselves. Couples grow each other. In safe relationships, couples grow each other. I watch severely traumatized people learn to trust another human being by having these hold me tight conversations with their partner, and it changes everything. Because they have a secure place in life for the first time. They feel seen, they feel accepted, they feel held.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And once you feel seen, accepted, and held, there\u2019s a natural human growth process that happens. Attachment science is all about development of the personality. There\u2019s a natural growth process. So we tune into that natural process in the hold me tight conversation. And those conversations predict over study, after study, after study, after study, those conversations predict success in EFT, they predict more secure bonding, they predict better sex, more sexual satisfaction in couples, they predict any measure of good, positive functioning you can imagine. Those bonding conversations predict all the good results we get in EFT and they predict results at follow up.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>TERRY REAL<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah, I imagine that\u2019ll give you a lot of payoff over a lot of miles. What is, another term that I\u2019d never heard before, being exposed to your work, normal marital hatred?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Terry Real:<\/strong> I got this from Ed Tronick, infant observational researcher. Ed, along with Berry Brazelton, was the first generation \u2014 you know, since Freud, what we said about child development all came from listening to adults. We didn\u2019t watch any kids. And he was one of the first people to actually plunk a video camera in front of mothers and infants and then fathers and infants and actually look at what happens. And when he came up with, I borrowed and it\u2019s central to RLT, which is the essential rhythm of all relationships is harmony, disharmony, and repair. Closeness, disruption, and a return to closeness. That\u2019s where the skills come in, how to move from disruption to repair.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Our culture doesn\u2019t teach it. Our culture doesn\u2019t even acknowledge that this rhythm, a good relationship is all harmony. Just like a good body is pure or a good body is like a 20-year-old body. A good sex life is like what you had when you were two weeks into the relationship. No, all harmony is bullshit. Bullshit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One of the things I like about you, Tim, is you tell the truth. You know what? You go to a cocktail party and you go, \u201cOh, there\u2019s Harry and Shirley. They\u2019re in their 80s. They still have sex, they love each other.\u201d Makes me \u2014 one of these days I\u2019d let you go to a cocktail party in here, \u201cThere\u2019s Harry and Shirley. They actually split up for a year. He fell in love with another woman. He couldn\u2019t take it because she was such a drunk. But then she got into AA and got sober and the two of them are really doing reasonably well. Aren\u2019t they cute?\u201d Just once, I\u2019d like to hear that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So we don\u2019t deal with reality. The father of couple\u2019s therapy back in the \u201950s said, \u201cThe day you turn to the person who\u2019s next to you,\u201d it was assumed it was your marriage, \u201cand you say, \u2018This is a mistake. I\u2019ve been had. This is not the person I fell in love with.\u2019 That,\u201d said Framo, \u201cis the first day of your real marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So here\u2019s what I want to say about disharmony. You ready? It hurts. It\u2019s dark. You can really, really feel like, \u201cWhat the hell did I get myself into? This is such a disappointment. And guess what? Your partner\u2019s probably feeling that about you, too. So I talk about normal marital hatred. When you\u2019re in that dark phase, you hate your partner. That\u2019s okay. Don\u2019t kill yourself or her. That\u2019s okay. I\u2019ll teach you how to get through it, but it\u2019s part of the deal for many of them. And here\u2019s what I like to say, I\u2019ve been going around the world talking about normal marital hatred for, oh, my God, what? 30 years. This is true. Not one person has ever come backstage and said, \u201cTerry, what do you mean by that?\u201d It\u2019s okay, kids. Don\u2019t sweat it. You can get through it. It\u2019s normal. Relax.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> What are some of the first steps or tools that you would recommend to someone listening who agrees with what you\u2019re saying, but has had no models for repair, has never learned how to use any type of approach for repair? And this is something that your help, well, your direct help, and then also your books have really helped me with because I did not grow up in a household with repair, right? It was basically, one person screams, then the other person goes to fix, which they don\u2019t really want to do, but it\u2019s their attempt to basically quell the disaster and fury, and that\u2019s it. Then everybody\u2019s kind of upset, and it never gets addressed. That was the model growing up. So what do you suggest to people who want to start with repair?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Terry Real:<\/strong> Of course, I\u2019m tempted to say, \u201cSo are you a screamer or a fixer?\u201d But I won\u2019t. Leave that alone.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I\u2019m a fixer. I\u2019m not a screamer.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Terry Real:<\/strong> Oh, wow. Okay. Lucky for your partner, but \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Terry Real:<\/strong> The problem is the resentment that builds up.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, exactly. Yep.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Terry Real:<\/strong> Yeah. Okay. So, repair. First of all, I like to say I have a number of bitter pills to swallow, but if you swallow them, things will be a lot better in your life. And here\u2019s one of them. Repair is a one-way street. Everybody gets that wrong. It\u2019s not a dialogue. It\u2019s not, well, these are your issues with me. Well, these are my issues with you. No. You have your turn, but not then. Take turns. So if you have a disgruntled partner, you are at their service \u2014 that\u2019s the first thing to master. I like to say, Tim, you\u2019re at the customer service window. Somebody comes to the customer service window and says, \u201cMy microwave doesn\u2019t work.\u201d They don\u2019t want to hear you say, \u201cWell, my toaster doesn\u2019t work.\u201d They don\u2019t want your excuses. Fix the goddamn microwave. Tend to your partner and bring them back into repair with you, then hours later or maybe, or the next, then they might have some interest in what you\u2019re \u2014 but tend to them. Put yourself aside and tend to them.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What does that look like? Two things. First, do I get it? Listen. Don\u2019t argue. Don\u2019t rebut. Listen. Empty the well. \u201cI\u2019m sorry you feel bad.\u201d That\u2019s beautiful. Compassion. \u201cI\u2019m sorry you feel bad. I love you. I don\u2019t want you to feel bad. Help me understand. What feels bad? What\u2019s it like for you?\u201d Okay, and then you reflect, \u201cThis is what I hear you say. Did I get it?\u201d Yeah, good enough. Good. Two, \u201cIs there something I could say or do right now that would be helpful? What would you like?\u201d Who says that? And then if anything short of jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, give it to them. Be generous. So those are the basics. I could be more specific, but \u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>DIANA CHAPMAN<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I would like to, if you\u2019re open to it, shift a little bit to relationships. And I want to ask you specifically about your partnership with Matt. So here\u2019s one of your superpowers, as listed from Mr. Jim. \u201cCreating and sustaining a wonderful, intimate partnership with Matt, her husband and lover, since they were teenagers. Have her talk about the risks she and they were willing to take to keep the relationship alive and vital, growing, and intimate.\u201d If you are game to talk about that, I would be very interested to hear more.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Diana Chapman:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, it\u2019s a challenge. It\u2019s both a great gift to be with a partner since you were young and get to grow up together. There\u2019s a lot of shared memories and shared friends, and there\u2019s a sweetness that it started out with you get to keep. And there\u2019s also a great challenge of the fact that we are different people who evolve and change. And so several times, at least three key times in our relationship, we\u2019ve been willing to let it all go, and we\u2019ve basically killed it off. Just said, \u201cThe relationship as it was is done. Now let\u2019s just check and see, is there a relationship? What is the relationship that wants to happen moving forward? Maybe it\u2019s just friends, co-parents. Maybe it\u2019s lovers, staying married. What is it?\u201d And so we have a lot of courage, both of us, to be willing to let go of what\u2019s not working and trust that the right form of the relationship will reveal itself. And it just so happens that it continues to be us married.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And we play around often. Sometimes we\u2019ll get up in the morning and I\u2019ll say something like, \u201cHey, you want to be married today?\u201d And he\u2019ll say, \u201cOh, well, what would that mean? What kind of a husband do I need to be?\u201d And we\u2019ll giggle and play around with, \u201cWell, how about this and this?\u201d And then we choose.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And we are always choosing over and over again, and we always are willing, kind of to the point of using the work with Byron Katie of, I\u2019m willing to open to the possibility that not being married is just as okay as being married.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And what that has created is an incredibly vital, creative, ever evolving, passionate marriage, in which we\u2019re freed up to keep exploring new ways of being together.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I am really proud of my relationship. I think it\u2019s one of the greatest things I\u2019ve ever done, is the marriage that I have. We get a lot of feedback that it\u2019s an inspiring marriage to a lot of people who look to it. And I do think it comes with the courage to say no.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> You mentioned at least \u2014 I think you said three times that you\u2019ve had this type of conversation. I would like to zoom in on the first conversation. Were you both already prepared and trained to initiate that type of conversation? Did one side initiate the, \u201cHey, let\u2019s decide if we want to remain as is, or if we want to take one of these other forms?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019m just wondering for people who are listening, who have never had one of these conversations \u2014 maybe they\u2019ve been at the breaking point, but they\u2019ve never had this conversation.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Diana Chapman:<\/strong> I initiated it. It wasn\u2019t Matt\u2019s idea. I said, \u201cHey, this isn\u2019t working for me, the way we\u2019re in a relationship. And there\u2019s a different kind of a man I want to be with than how you are. And I want another possibility.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so I didn\u2019t know how to do all this. I was just toddling around, trying to figure this out. And I said, \u201cI don\u2019t want to do it this way anymore.\u201d And so I thought that might mean that we needed to be separated and that we needed to end the marriage.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I was willing to. We actually got some support from counselors about telling our kids that we were going to divorce. Because that\u2019s the only direction it seemed like we were going to go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then I had this great advice from a friend who said, \u201cOkay, Diana, I love you both. If you think divorce is what needs to happen, that\u2019s great. But I hear you complaining that there\u2019s a certain man you want him to be that he\u2019s not.\u201d And she said, \u201cWho is the woman you would need to be to call forward that man?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And my stomach dropped, and I though \u201cI don\u2019t know about that. What?\u201d And I realized, \u201cOh, I would need to be a different woman.\u201d So we said, \u201cLet\u2019s kill off this old marriage and let\u2019s see if we can create a new one. And I\u2019m going to keep asking myself, who do I need to be to call forward the man I want to be with?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And about six months later, I was with the man I wanted to be with. And I remember saying to him, \u201cYou really changed.\u201d And he said, \u201cNo, you really changed.\u201d And the truth is we both really changed.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But I was really grateful for that first conversation of being willing to let it go, and then getting the feedback of, \u201cHey, if you\u2019re the creator of who\u2019s showing up over there, who do you need to be?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And for many months I felt like I was going to throw up 24\/7, learning to be a much more vulnerable, needy woman, who called forward the man who could protect and lead, in a way that I hadn\u2019t been willing to be in the past.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Thank you for sharing all this, by the way. Very courageous and vulnerable. And how did you figure out who you needed to be? Who that woman was, to call forth the version of your husband or the man who you wanted to be with?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Did you have help? Was it obvious once you sat with it, in terms of the changes that needed to be made on your side or the things you needed to cultivate or drop? How did you arrive at the answers?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Diana Chapman:<\/strong> At first I didn\u2019t know. I just knew I was really scared when I asked the question. And so I knew that my fear \u2014 I believe that fear, when we\u2019re present, is an intelligence that says, \u201cSomething needs to get learned. Something needs to get learned.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So when I had that fear, I thought, \u201cOh, wow, something needs to get learned. I don\u2019t know something here.\u201d And so that was my first clue that her question was powerful, is the fear that arose in me. And then I just kept asking the fear, \u201cWhat needs to be learned?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I just kept being really broad in that curiosity. I got into a state of wonder. \u201cI wonder who I would need to be to call forward the man I most want to be with.\u201d I just kept asking that. \u201cI wonder.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I let it be okay that I didn\u2019t have to know, because I didn\u2019t know. I\u2019d been with him for a long time and I didn\u2019t know. So I had to be willing to listen and learn from something greater than my own experience so far.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so it was in that level of curiosity that I just found my way. And it was just baby steps. A little bit here, a little bit there, and we\u2019ve had several versions of that often. Or not often, but the three versions were all some version of me \u2014 something needs to get learned for the next evolution here of this relationship.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Do you have recommended resources or practices that couples can seek out or embrace so that they are better prepared, if they get to these decision points? Or just overall in with respect to nurturing a healthy co-created relationship? Are there any books, any particular practices that you would highlight for folks?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Diana Chapman:<\/strong> Well, Matt and I studied with Gay and Katie Hendricks for years at the Hendricks Institute. They did a lot of relationship work. They still do a bit of it. But I learned so many tools there on how to get off the Drama Triangle.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I learned about personas and about how I get caught in these personas that then unconsciously require the persona of my partner to show up in a certain way, that then I complain about. And I learned about how to unwind those or shift them when I wanted to.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I learned about the importance of feeling my feelings. I learned about really questioning my stories. I learned about polarity and how important it is to honor polarity that shows up in couples, and making sure that I honored both sides of the polarity equally.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For example, a lot of couples argue about money. And almost always there\u2019s one that we call the gas and one who\u2019s the brake, and somebody who\u2019s more free-flowing with money, and somebody who\u2019s more controlling about money. And can we honor these polarities and can we see the value in both of them?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because usually I was the one who wanted to spend the money and my husband wanted to hold onto the money. And we would get into a battle about, \u201cYou\u2019re keeping me from having joy in my life because you\u2019re so stingy about money.\u201d And he\u2019d say, \u201cYou\u2019re going to make us all broke because you\u2019re just so unconscious about spending it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so honoring that those two sides of the polarity are actually allies that are here to create just the right balance to take care of ourselves and have fun. And so those are all different skill sets. There\u2019s so many different tools.<\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<h3 id=\"relationship-tools-compilation-legal-conditions\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">DUE TO SOME HEADACHES IN THE PAST, PLEASE NOTE LEGAL CONDITIONS:<\/h3>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Tim Ferriss owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of The Tim Ferriss Show podcast, with all rights reserved, as well as his right of publicity.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>WHAT YOU\u2019RE WELCOME TO DO:<\/em>\u00a0<em>You are welcome to share the below transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles (e.g.,\u00a0<\/em>The New York Times<em>,\u00a0<\/em>LA Times<em>,\u00a0<\/em>The Guardian<em>), on your personal website, in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., Medium), and\/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include attribution to \u201cThe Tim Ferriss Show\u201d and link back to the tim.blog\/podcast URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>WHAT IS NOT ALLOWED:<\/em>\u00a0<em>No one is authorized to copy any portion of the podcast content or use Tim Ferriss\u2019 name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another\u2019s products or services. For the sake of clarity, media outlets are permitted to use photos of Tim Ferriss from\u00a0<\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/media\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>the media room on tim.blog<\/em><\/a><em>\u00a0or (obviously) license photos of Tim Ferriss from Getty Images, etc.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Please enjoy this transcript of a special episode devoted to one deceptively simple question: How do you stay close to your partner over time through [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":13596,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[13],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-13609","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growth"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13609","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=13609"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13609\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/13596"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=13609"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=13609"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=13609"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}