{"id":13711,"date":"2026-09-13T01:05:03","date_gmt":"2026-09-13T05:05:03","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-why-kids-can-learn-10x-faster-than-we-think-niels-hoven-of-mentava-tim-coaching-session-882\/"},"modified":"2026-09-13T01:05:03","modified_gmt":"2026-09-13T05:05:03","slug":"the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-why-kids-can-learn-10x-faster-than-we-think-niels-hoven-of-mentava-tim-coaching-session-882","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-why-kids-can-learn-10x-faster-than-we-think-niels-hoven-of-mentava-tim-coaching-session-882\/","title":{"rendered":"The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Why Kids Can Learn 10x Faster Than We Think \u2014 Niels Hoven of Mentava (Tim Coaching Session) (#882)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Please enjoy this transcript of <a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/09\/10\/niels-hoven-mentava\/\">a live, unscripted working session with a founder<\/a>, one of only two I\u2019ve done this year. <strong>Niels Hoven<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/x.com\/NielsHoven\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">@NielsHoven<\/a>) is the founder and CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.mentava.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Mentava<\/a>, a company building software to support fast learners.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/09\/10\/niels-hoven-mentava\/\">Niel\u2019s full bio<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/09\/10\/niels-hoven-mentava\/#:~:text=All%20episodes-,Show%20Notes,-Connect%20with%20Niels\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Books, people, tools, and resources mentioned in the interview<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/2026\/09\/10\/niels-hoven-mentava-transcript\/#niels-hoven-legal-conditions\">Legal conditions\/copyright information<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"podcast-player\">\n<div class=\"podcast-player-inner-wrap\">\n<p>Why Kids Can Learn 10x Faster Than We Think \u2014 Niels Hoven of Mentava (Tim Coaching Session)<\/p>\n<p><noscript><iframe src=\"https:\/\/www.art19.com\/shows\/58dacbdc-646e-4585-9914-19c3de11d1ba\/episodes\/c4a073c5-6dde-4c14-9b7d-58e3c96e3bfe\/embed?type=micro\" style=\"width: 100%; height: 30px; border: 0 none;\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Additional podcast platforms<\/h3>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Listen to this episode on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/882-why-kids-can-learn-10x-faster-than-we-think-niels\/id863897795?i=1000788911365\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/0cMVxjVgAlJgHbD4NEhx12\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/+AAKebsAw3pY\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcastaddict.com\/podcast\/2031148#\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Podcast Addict<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/pca.st\/timferriss\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Pocket Casts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castbox.fm\/channel\/id1059468?country=us\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castbox<\/a>,\u00a0<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/music.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLuu6fDad2eJyWPm9dQfuorm2uuYHBZDCB\">YouTube Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/9814f3cc-1dc5-4003-b816-44a8eb6bf666\/the-tim-ferriss-show\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Amazon Music<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.audible.com\/podcast\/The-Tim-Ferriss-Show\/B08K58QX5W\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Audible<\/a>, or on your favorite podcast platform.<\/strong><\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 2+ hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!<\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Niels, it\u2019s nice to see you. Thanks for making the time. Looking forward to this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Thanks so much. I appreciate the chance to be here.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Absolutely. And it was fun for me to take a trip down memory lane in a sense, because I remember exactly where I was when we first had our very initial long conversation about Mentava and I got super amped. I was in British Columbia walking around a friend\u2019s cabin. I remember exactly right next to a river, freezing cold outside, snow on the ground. And digging back into the website, looking at the testimonials, watching some of the videos of kids, I was like, \u201cYes, I remember very clearly why I invested so long ago.\u201d It feels like ages ago. It was quite a while back. And we will get to the bio. I actually want to use part of this working session to go through the bio as I have it here intended for me to read, because I think the wordsmithing may apply to other places, including the website, including potentially paid acquisition.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But before we get to that, why don\u2019t you\u2014let\u2019s hear it from your mouth. What is Mentava? What is the latest draft of your quick explanation of what Mentava is?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> All right. The latest draft is that Mentava is software that is designed to let kids learn as fast as they\u2019re capable of learning instead of just at the pace assigned to their age. And the first product we have is our early literacy software, which is designed for kids, preschoolers, as young as generally three to get to a second-grade reading level.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And what is a second-grade reading level? Let\u2019s just say I\u2019m a first-time parent. I don\u2019t know what it means. What is an eager to learn, reasonably smart second-grader doing with their reading by the end of second grade?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Our finish line is basically able to read easy reader books on your own. So think <em>Green Eggs and Ham<\/em>, <em>Hop on Pop<\/em>, the <em>Elephant &amp; Piggie<\/em> series, the conscious competence level of being able to read.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Okay, got it. And what are some stories? And I recognize these are not RCTs, right? So for the people out there who are going to try to needle everything, a lot of these are anecdotal of course, but you also have data in terms of performance on the app, right? It\u2019s not just a subjective measurement, but could you just give some stories related to kids learning to read faster than one might expect?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right. We had a set of two-year-old twins who were reading <em>Hop on Pop<\/em>, <em>Green Eggs and Ham<\/em>, these early reader books before their third birthday. We have a three-year-old who\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That I saw, where they were standing\u2026<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Oh yeah, you just retweeted that video.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. The parents were projecting the game onto some large screen and the two twins were basically just playing and competing with each other to read. Wild. They were so excited to read.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> It is really adorable. It\u2019s funny, there\u2019s so much fear around, but if I give my kid these academic opportunities when they\u2019re so young, are they going to stress out? Are they going to freak out? But no, it\u2019s actually fun. Kids are these little sponges. They want to learn everything.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And just as background, well, why don\u2019t you tell one or two more stories and then I want to hear how Mentava came to be, not the Iliad version, like the abbreviated version, but maybe you can give a few more examples because people might say, \u201cOkay, fine. You got the Wonder Twins, but we need more than the Wonder Twins.\u201d So what else have you seen?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> We had a three-year-old who learned to read in about three months. We had a kindergartner who was behind and his mom asked us, \u201cCan we use this software to help him catch up?\u201d And she came back to me a little later and said, \u201cYeah, he\u2019s reading now. The teacher says she\u2019s never seen a kid catch up so fast.\u201d What was the phrasing? She was like, \u201cThe teacher didn\u2019t actually say this, but I could read between the lines. I could tell that the teacher really wanted to say your kid was just a terrible reader.\u201d The teacher didn\u2019t say that. The parent was like, \u201cBut I could read between the lines. I knew what she wanted to say.\u201d And the teacher said she\u2019d never seen anyone catch up that fast.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And the thing that actually really stuck with me from that one was the mom was saying the kid used to come to her and tell her, \u201cHey mom, there\u2019s this kid in my class who\u2019s so smart. He\u2019s able to read and do all these things.\u201d And then she said, \u201cHe came back to me the other day and said, \u2018Mom, I can read like he can read now.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That\u2019s so cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> That was just really neat.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I was watching the two-minute, maybe three-minute demo. I\u2019m not sure. It\u2019s pretty short. I don\u2019t think you guys publicize or use it much, but the demo video that you sent over.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> It\u2019s a terrible demo, but yeah, it\u2019s out there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It\u2019s terrible except there is one slide, let\u2019s call it, it\u2019s text that is a testimonial that is kind of below the fold on laptop on your love letters section with all these parents sharing their experiences, which is roughly more progress in one week with my daughter than in roughly six months of kindergarten. And that\u2019s bananas, but it\u2019s not so bananas as to be outside of the realm of possibility. And you become somewhat of an adept in the sport of sparring with critics on X, the artist formerly known as Twitter. And we may chat about that, to what extent it\u2019s helpful to engage in or even provoke the culture wars. But I have seen a few. I think there\u2019s one notable. You\u2019re good at responding to the critics in a way that gets people to sign up for Mentava. And there was someone who said like, \u201cThe learning process, I have a four-year degree that was earned because learning is complex and you cannot simplify it and we\u2019re not focused on outcomes. We\u2019re focused on all this hand wavy stuff.\u201d And certainly\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> This was an educator who said something like, \u201cYou will never convince me that results are the driver of education. You\u2019ll never convince me that efficacy is supposed to be one of our goals.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> People can watch the documentary <em>Waiting for \u201cSuperman\u201d<\/em> if they want to see the part of the sorry state of things. But I was introduced to you. How was I introduced to you? It was Eric Ries, I believe, of <em>The Lean Startup<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Also one of our investors.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Also one of your investors because I think he knew or intuited that I\u2019m very much on the same page. You can learn things much, you meaning adults, but also humans, broadly speaking, can learn things much, much, much more quickly than conventional wisdom would suggest. And I could go off on this long list of things, but how do you do it? How do you do it? How did Mentava come to be, short version, and why does it work? How and why does it work?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Short version of how it came to be. Mentava started during the pandemic. At the time, my wife and I, we had three little kids, so we both have full-time jobs. We\u2019re locked down in this 600-square-foot, one-bedroom apartment. My kids want to learn. They\u2019re young kids. They\u2019re these little sponges. They want to learn to read. They want to do math, but I have a full-time job. I don\u2019t have time to teach them and be their teacher every step of the way. What I really want is I want them to be able to teach themselves, which aside from just being practical in that situation is just this life skill that I feel is really, really important. And so, I started looking around for software or apps that could support my kids as they\u2019re learning, and there just wasn\u2019t very much out there. I found a couple of things that were okay and we made it work, and it was honestly surprising how well they were able to learn despite using software that really wasn\u2019t designed for having kids teach themselves.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so, other parents noticed what I was doing. They asked me questions about it. I pointed them to the same software, and some of them had some success and some of them didn\u2019t. And really what I realized as all of this was going on was that the problem was in the design of the software. No one is designing software for three and four-year-olds to be learning on their own. It\u2019s not that it\u2019s impossible, it\u2019s just that it\u2019s really, really hard. But my background is in games. I spent a long time designing games and designing tutorials, and it\u2019s just design problems all the way down. I felt like this is a problem that I could solve, that I wanted to solve for myself, that I wanted to solve for other people, and that\u2019s where Mentava came from.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And what\u2019s the magic sauce? Why does it work? Why is it better than the 12 other things that I\u2019ve seen you rate from a scale of, I think, 1 to 10 in different ways and giving your reasons?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right. I think the key things that Mentava brings to the table is an extremely optimized curriculum and a lot of really good motivation design. I think the curriculum advantage should not be as much of an advantage as it is because reading and math are both basically solved problems. We know how to teach reading. You teach kids letter sounds and then you teach them to blend them together. And honestly, for $15, you can get a book off of Amazon that will let you do that. You have to be the teacher. It\u2019s a lot of heavy lifting from the parents\u2019 side, but it will get the job done. So it\u2019s kind of unconscionable that this has been a debate in education for a generation, but this is very much a solved problem. So we take phonics, we optimize it, we teach it really nicely. We make really good UX. We make it really easy for two, three, and four-year-olds to use.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And this is on, typically, a tablet?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah, on an iPad, just as an anecdote is where the bar is hanging in terms of low hang design. In one of the apps that I was using before we built Mentava to have my kids learn, if you have a two-year-old, if you have a three-year-old and they\u2019re using an iPad, they kind of brace it on their belly and they hold it there while they\u2019re tapping away at it. And a very common situation that happens is their little tubby toddler belly hangs over the edge of the iPad and you get all these extraneous touches at the bottom of the iPad. And in one of the apps that we were using, every time that happened, the app would crash. It was just a tap. So you have this\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Belly crash.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> \u2014two-year-old toddler belly constantly crashing the app. And so we take into account all these little things where you have a kid who doesn\u2019t know how to read trying to use these educational apps. The other piece that we really bring to the table is motivation. I think there\u2019s a lot of people really don\u2019t understand how sophisticated motivation design is. But if you look at video games, if you walk into a casino and you walk through the slot machine aisles, human motivation is kind of a solved problem. We know how to get people to do the things that we want them to do over and over and kind of, I don\u2019t know exactly how to say that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> You mean like variable reward or how does the slot machine example map to motivation design?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right. The slot machine example is probably the crudest example. It\u2019s the easiest way to motivate someone because the metaphor for motivation that I like to use is it\u2019s like trying to get someone to jump through a hoop. And so, you can either increase the size of the reward on the other side or you can lower the hoop. And so, slot machines are kind of the purest example of this where they dangle the biggest reward you could possibly imagine, which is like a million dollar jackpot, and they\u2019ve moved the hoop as low as you possibly can, which is just press this button over and over again. And so for that specific use case, it has been solved. And so our goal with Mentava is, okay, the hoop we want kids to jump through is learning all of these phonic sounds and learning to blend them together.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So how, through really good user experience design, can we lower that hoop as low as we possibly can? And then what can we dangle on the other side of that hoop to make kids want to come back and do this every single day? And for that, we use a lot of insights and design principles from game design about helping kids feel motivation, about visualizing the progress that they\u2019ve made, about twiddling the right reward centers in the brain in just the right way that we celebrate their intrinsic motivation rather than trying to replace it extrinsically.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So Niels, let\u2019s move next to your bio. And if you could indulge me, which might end up seeming like a very pedantic exercise, I\u2019m just going to go through and tell you how I would change certain words because I think we\u2019re going to talk a lot about these magical things that allow us to produce images in brains at a distance. All words. All right. How do you pronounce your last name correctly? Remind me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Hoven.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Hoven. All right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Hoven.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Niels Hoven. On X, if you want to see front lines of the culture wars, @NielsHoven. He\u2019s the founder and CEO of Mentava, a company building software to support unusually fast learners. This phrasing, unusually fast learners, I would actually just scrap unusually and go straight to fast learners. Part of the reason for that is that when I saw this on the website, I was like, \u201cWell, what is unusually fast?\u201d Even if I consider my kid fast, maybe unusually fast is what, 1 out of 100? 1 out of 1,000? And I stumbled. So I made note of things that I read twice or that I stumbled over. And this is a subjective take, but since I\u2019m in the midst of having just recently cut an 870-page book to 350 and now I\u2019m doing all of the fine tuning, this is how my brain is calibrated at the moment.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Okay. So software to support unusually fast learners or support fast learners. High achieving kids are dramatically underserved by today\u2019s education system. I would also, I think high achieving for me at least, I think about pegging to letter grades in high school or college. I might just replace that or you could scrap high achieving. When in doubt, take it out is another writing dictum. So it\u2019s like kids, high achieving kids, eager kids maybe, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Oh yeah. Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Eager kids are dramatically underserved by today\u2019s education system. And again, I recognize this might be a little laborious for a second, but it\u2019s going to tie into things that come up later. Okay. Niels created Mentava to allow top performing students to achieve their potential. I think we can scrap top performing also, students to achieve their potential. Great. Now I would actually scrap this entire second paragraph, which I\u2019ll explain in a moment, but while most education companies focus on raising the floor, Mentava\u2019s mission is to remove the ceiling. I have very strong opinions about this. I know it\u2019s on the website. I get the turn of phrase and I understand why there\u2019s a degree of clever wordsmithing here. I don\u2019t like this as a positioning for you because what I ended up stumbling over here, I was like, raising the floor, remove the ceiling, remove the ceiling. I guess that\u2019s as high as the best performing students.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So raising the floor, does that mean accommodating and helping the lowest performing students? I ended up dissecting it and just spending a lot of time thinking about it. So I\u2019ve read that line a lot, but let\u2019s move on. Is my understanding of that correct? Am I actually understanding that sense as it\u2019s intended?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah, basically you are. I think one of the challenges we are struggling with is how we kind of target what we see as more of a niche audience that deeply values education, is willing to pay for it and has kids that are being unsupported academically. And so we\u2019ve been playing with different turns of phrases to try and speak to these people, but I agree. I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve found the right one yet.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. I would also say, I think it\u2019s a big niche, frankly, which you may have already concluded, but their early literacy software, meaning Mentava\u2019s early literacy software for preschoolers is used and trusted by some of the most influential people in the world. Don\u2019t love that. We can come back to that just because it\u2019s something that anyone could claim unless you have things to point to, right? And maybe you do. We can come back to that. Mentava blends careful curriculum design with best in class motivation design. I think, for instance, we are not that far from the beginning of the new year. I think doubling down on motivation design if you\u2019re going to do more X posts around January would actually be very interesting and do some very interesting things there that would drive conversions, but developed through years of experience building mobile and I\u2019m guessing the way you pronounce this is AAA games.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I don\u2019t actually know what AAA games are, but that sounds like a good thing and I have heard it before. This is, I think, the money shot in some respects. Prior to Mentava, Niels worked at Cloudflare, ClassDojo, and Pocket Gems where he ran the highest grossing mobile game in the world in 2011. That says you know what you\u2019re doing very, very clearly. So I would be inclined to scrap that whole second paragraph and then move up the third. And then it goes to mentava.com and it has all the links and everything else. So M-E-N-T-A-V-A, if people are wondering. But I don\u2019t want to belabor the intro, but we are going to spend a lot of time on messaging.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And you very kindly sent a skeleton framework that we could use for going into the conversation. I think we already checked off kids can learn much faster than people think. Problem two, I think, is maybe not immediately obvious to folks, but the problem, and if you don\u2019t mind, I\u2019ll just read it. We waste the low pressure elementary school years and then pour on pressure in high school. And it\u2019s like, okay, maybe I agree with that. Okay, waste low pressure. How should we capitalize on low pressure and are we accidentally turning it into high pressure if we add something like this? I mean, looking at the kids playing it, at least the video I\u2019ve seen, it wouldn\u2019t seem that way. I do like, I know I\u2019m kind of spoiling the delivery by offering the punchline, but if you don\u2019t mind.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah, go for it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So you had two, right? You had two sub-bullets under that. Schools actively slow down fast learners. Yes, 100% agree. They wouldn\u2019t let my son learn algebra, et cetera. Is that your son, your actual son?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> My son, yep.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Okay. Early acceleration means less pressure later. That I think is super, super, super interesting as a point that could be really used, maybe not in exactly that form. And then number three solution. Mentava lets kids accelerate without requiring parents to become teachers or taskmasters. And that\u2019s through, as you pointed out, the very finely tuned curriculum and motivation design. And I would agree that schools are surprisingly bad at both.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So what are some of the current challenges? How would you lay out the hierarchy of problems to solve, opportunities to capitalize on, however you would like to phrase it or list it out? Where should we go next?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Zooming way out. We\u2019ve built a product that we are really proud of that when our customers use it, they rave about it and they tell their friends about it. I think we have not figured out. We are really good at product design and we are not so good at marketing. We are trying to explain a problem that a lot of parents don\u2019t realize that they have, that their kids could be doing so much more, that their kids are going to be held back when they get to elementary school. By the time parents realize that they had this problem, that their kids are bored and not achieving their potential. It\u2019s kind of too late to\u2014or the biggest opportunities to do something about it are now behind them. And then for even the parents who are looking for a product in this space that can help support their kids\u2019 learning, they\u2019re not experts.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And what differentiates our software from a lot of the other stuff out there is really nuanced. And so, how do we differentiate what we feel is a premium product when the differentiates is really nuanced and in thousands of small decisions that customers can\u2019t look at themselves? It\u2019s kind of like trying to explain what makes this video game better than this other video game. It\u2019s a very hard thing to explain or has been for us.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Right. It\u2019s a thousand decisions that add up to a very distinct feeling maybe on some level. Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> We found a lot of the parents who came to us immediately sort of already feel this problem intensely because sometimes it\u2019s immigrants who come to the US and then are just shocked at how much worse the education system is here than what they experienced. So they just see this immediately and they\u2019re like, \u201cI am not going to have any part of this. I need to start addressing this right away.\u201d Or it\u2019s people who already care about motivation and just recognize that their kid is capable of doing more than they\u2019re doing. We have a lot of parents who are in Montessori who send their kids to Montessori school because they love the values there, but they\u2019re like, \u201cBut Montessori school doesn\u2019t focus on academics. My kids could be learning to read and they refuse to give them any phonics, so I want to do it at home.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Okay. So let me just say what\u2019s top of mind and then we can go in a lot of different directions because I think that the fixes in a way are going to be a lot like your product design. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s one thing. I think there are probably myriad things that when moved five degrees in the right direction might reach this breakthrough or step function distinction where suddenly you have better retention, more referrals, et cetera. That\u2019s just my intuition looking at everything in front of me and the website and so on.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> That sounds right to me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But let\u2019s start with what came to mind for me, which is related to something that you have, I think is kind of like one of your pain points, which is how do we solve a problem before the customer knows it exists? And a way to rephrase that would be like, how do we educate people about the problem? And there\u2019s a framework, you may have heard it. It was actually introduced to me. I met a doula the other day, someone who\u2019s somewhat like a midwife who helps the birthing process and she was talking about this acronym BRAIN, and it was benefits, risks, alternatives, what does your intuition say, and then N is nothing. What if we did nothing? What if we didn\u2019t do anything about this?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so, I\u2019ve been applying that to more things and I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, what if you didn\u2019t do any education in\u2014\u201d Rephrasing that, what if that were not the problem? And the reason that comes up for me is when I imagine I want to have kids at some point, it\u2019s like, okay, I would hope my kids are eager learners and curious and maybe have a little embedded software that gives them an advantage. It\u2019s like, okay. I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve run into this, but my hesitancy, if I had any, I don\u2019t think I would have a ton. I think I would just pay the price and use Mentava, but is I want my kids to be socially intelligent. I want them to be in school with other kids. I\u2019m not going to have child neuro taught by private tutors or whatever. I mean, hopefully not child neuro, but that\u2019s a whole separate conversation.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The point of that being, I want them to be kids and to have time socially. But if I push them three, four years ahead, is school going to be even worse for them because now they\u2019re just sitting there staring at the clock waiting for school to be over? And if so, how do I check the box of maximizing intellectual development while also allowing for kids to be kids plus the social development?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Has that come up at all or is that\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> This has come up.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Because for me, I\u2019m like, fuck yeah. Let\u2019s pour gasoline on this eagerness to learn. And these kids want to go, go, go and they\u2019re being held back. They\u2019re these thoroughbred racehorses locked in the gate. They\u2019re just not being let out to run. It\u2019s like, \u201cSure, I want that kid to run, but then what? What form does school take if I give them such a head start?\u201d How do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> So a big part of the reason we\u2019ve designed Mentava the way we did is because of exactly this. So when I was in third grade, I was ahead of my class in math and my school only went up to third grade. So before third grade, in second grade, I would go to the third grade class for math and then I would come back to my classroom. But in third grade, there was no classroom for me to go to. So I started doing independent study in third grade. During math class, I would go to the back of the room, I would study out of a math book for the hour of math class, and then I would come back and join my class for the rest of the day. And I did that for the next four years all the way up until I rejoined classes in seventh grade for pre-calculus. And then I took calculus in eighth grade.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so, those four years of being able to learn on my own at my own pace allowed me\u2014I didn\u2019t have any homework. I got to go as fast as I wanted. It was really incredible. It also built this skill of teaching myself that I depend on today. And that\u2019s why I think you look at a lot of the other alternative schooling startups that are happening where they\u2019re trying to develop an entire schooling ecosystem that would run parallel with public schools. And I actually really believe in the institution of public schools. I went to public schools. My children go to public schools. I just want them to be supported and allowed to learn at their own pace there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So to me, really, the ideal case is let\u2019s let our kids go to public school with their peers from their neighborhood. And then for an hour a day during math class, they study Mentava. They do math Mentava for an hour. They get to go at their own pace, and then they rejoin their same age peers for the rest of the day and have a good time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Am I wrong? As an Austinite, I feel like it may not be exactly this, but Alpha School uses sort of adaptive software on tablets for a portion of the day.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I think I\u2019m getting that right. But you would also want something that scales that people can use now as opposed to moving to a city that has Alpha School, which is going to be great, but also very expensive and limited capacity, et cetera, et cetera. Right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> So Alpha School\u2019s big insight is essentially the same as ours, that if you allow kids to learn at their own pace, you can pack the entire school day into a very small amount of time. When my own son was in third grade, after a lot of back and forth, we finally got permission from one amazing teacher for him to do independent study during math class from an app during the school day. And he finished eighth grade math while he was in third grade. And that\u2019s just the pace of what kids are allowed to do, capable of doing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. So let\u2019s hop into it because I love what you\u2019re doing. I have since the beginning. It works. I\u2019ve seen plenty of videos and enough testimonials and the design. This is going to sound maybe arrogant because I\u2019m certainly not an educator, I\u2019m not a computer scientist, I\u2019m not a UX designer, but I look at it, I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah. From a micro progression logical sequencing perspective, it just makes sense.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s very hard to make and when you see it, you\u2019re like, \u201cOh yeah. That makes sense like many things.\u201d So I want to be as maximally helpful as possible here. Let\u2019s hop into a real customer. And I\u2019m going to give you an example of a real prospective customer because as chance would have it, it\u2019s such a small world. It\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So we\u2019re doing this kind of live workshop on this podcast episode. I\u2019ve only done two of these. You are number two. Number one, I don\u2019t think you\u2019d mind me mentioning is Jake Becraft of Strand Therapeutics. He\u2019s developing mRNA as a programmable layer in medicine and doing all this crazy stuff that\u2019s amazing with cancer.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And Jake is very, very smart, so not shockingly. His kid is also pretty smart. And he reached out to me because he saw me as an investor on the website, and he\u2019s like, \u201cOf course you\u2019re an investor in Mentava.\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cAll right. Well now, I want to ask you about it.\u201d And I encouraged him to try it and then never heard back.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so I reached out to him, and I was like, \u201cWhatever happened? Did you try Mentava?\u201d And then I just want to read his feedback, and we\u2019re going to just take a bite of the apple from a bunch of different directions because again, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s one\u2014as much as I wish this were the case, like, \u201cOkay. We\u2019re going to change unusually fast learners to fast learners,\u201d and boom, automatically conversion and everything like quadruples. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s going to happen.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But here\u2019s what he said, \u201cYes, I did.\u201d So they have a 14-day trial period and also try to see if your kid is ready. He put that in quotation marks. A few thoughts. Number one, I won\u2019t give his kid\u2019s name, but let\u2019s call his kid Rob. Rob was super young, two years and two months, but he taught himself the whole alphabet at 17 months so he figured why not try?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Two, there\u2019s a \u201csequencing milestone\u201d that they explain is important. Rob was likely not fully there. Three, let\u2019s see. Their curriculum sort of made the sequencing tests more difficult than I think they need to be, and then pushed him to easier curriculum, which I couldn\u2019t figure out how to override. That was one sort of annoying part, but it makes sense to make sure people fail fast and don\u2019t pay before the kid is ready.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Four, we ended up pausing at the end of the trial with the plan to restart in three months, which will be soon. Five, he still points to the iPad. This is the most important part of the whole thing by the way. Well, I think there\u2019s a lot in all these bullets, but here\u2019s the last one. He still, this is his son, Rob, still points to the iPad and says he wants to play the letter game.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So clearly, Mentava had some pull for him. So the kid wants to use it. But one question I had, I guess there are two things that pop to mind. Well, before we get to the suggestions, can you explain the 14-day trial period and the sequencing just for folks so they have an idea of what this looks like? People go to the website. They\u2019re like, \u201cOh my God, totally want to try this.\u201d And so they click on the 14-day trial period. What happens, and what is the sequencing?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think there\u2019s not a question about the user flow, which we know is bad and more about a question of the experience that they\u2019re having as they engage with the software. Is that what you\u2019re asking?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Yep.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Okay. So the point of the 14-day free trial is that we know we are not good at explaining what differentiates our software. We think what works best is just get it in the hands of the customer and let them try. So I think within 14 days, we think that\u2019s enough time that a customer can figure out if this is going to be a good fit for their family or not.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A very common problem is exactly what happened with Jake where he has a kid who is probably not developmentally ready to learn to read. And so we want the parents to recognize that during the free trial. What a lot of people don\u2019t realize is that the developmental milestones, kids are able to learn letters and letter sounds quite a bit earlier than actually being able to blend those sounds together and be able to read.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So very common that you could have a kid who\u2019s a year and a half, two years old, knows all of their letter sounds, but they are not actually capable of learning to read because they can\u2019t blend those into words. We\u2019ve figured out that there\u2019s a test that we can give the kids to see if they can understand the concept of left to right reading order, basically the idea that directionality is important.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So what do we do is we show them a couple emojis. We show them dog fish, and we show them fish dog and we say, \u201cThis one is dog fish. This one is fish dog.\u201d And then we ask them, \u201cNow, we just told you, which one of these is dog fish, and which one of these is fish dog?\u201d And what we found is that for older kids, this is an obvious question.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Of course, you just go this way, \u201cThis one is dog fish, and this one is fish dog.\u201d But for younger kids whose brains haven\u2019t connected those neurons or whatever, this is a nearly impossible question. And so in the Mentava experience, fairly early on, you purposely hit this wall where we\u2019re asking your kid, \u201cDo you understand dog fish, fish dog?\u201d And if they can\u2019t, we boot them over to, \u201cWe\u2019ll just teach you letter sounds,\u201d and we send the parents an email explaining this developmental readiness.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think we send the parents an email. We might not. I hope we send the parents an email explaining this developmental readiness issue and ask them to try again in three to six months.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Okay. So that was going to be one of the questions I wanted to hit on. And I\u2019ve got plenty. So don\u2019t worry folks who are listening. We\u2019re getting into the weeds quickly, but the weeds are where we have to play this game. What share of failed trials come back like a Jake? And are they prompted three months later or are they just told when the kid doesn\u2019t pass the hurdle, try coming back in three months? I guess how proactive is the outreach and what percentage?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> There\u2019s zero proactive outreach.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So I\u2019m going to hit something that is going to be related to all of this, which ultimately is going to fold into mock-ups and redesigns of the website as well. But let me give you just a brain dump of some things that I think might be helpful, and I\u2019ll prompt some of them with questions. All right. Is Mentava free for schools or in some capacity free for teachers? Is there any free option? Is there anyone who can use Mentava for free?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> We have pilot programs running with schools right now. We\u2019re not charging the schools who are in the pilot program. I would like to give Mentava to schools for free. Our philosophy is that if you want to use us as essentially a private tutor to accelerate your kid, that\u2019s going to be expensive. But if you\u2019re a school just using us as a tool to support your teacher, we\u2019d like that to be cheap or free.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We are in the process of getting\u2014may actually have just gone live of having self-serve signups for teachers so that they can get it for their classroom. The main issue we have there unfortunately is just fraud. What prevents just a random parent from saying, \u201cI\u2019m a teacher. Let me sign up and get this for free.\u201d And so that\u2019s why we haven\u2019t really scaled that or pushed it aggressively.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. So I would say a few things. The first is that if, in fact, you end up offering it at very low cost or for free to schools, even if it\u2019s in some limited fashion and people need to check a bunch of boxes, that could be a useful flak jacket for offsetting the premium cost of the product, which is what right now? What is the cost?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve mentioned this. So this is a $500 a month product, which I think many people are shocked when they first hear, but also, we have a lot of customers who are like, \u201cOh, we let go of our tutor. We don\u2019t need our private tutor anymore because we\u2019ve replaced it with your software. You guys should be charging more. This is great.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. So I don\u2019t think the cost is a problem personally, and we can come back to that. But I do think the free for schools and teachers is interesting. The other thing I would say is that\u2014I probably shouldn\u2019t mention them specifically, but I know someone who has created a spectacularly successful app, and it\u2019s pretty expensive.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On an annual basis for an adult, it\u2019s going to be in the hundreds of dollars, and it\u2019s very, very successful. And he set a policy very early on, which was if you can\u2019t afford it, send an email to this email address, explain why. And chances are, you\u2019ll get it for free. And the fraud has been unbelievably low.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">People do email, and I\u2019m sure some of them are fraudulent. But on the margin, it is so unimportant. It\u2019s so trivial and the cost of delivering the product to a handful of fraudulent customers who are unethically kind of abusing things is so low that maybe it doesn\u2019t matter.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">At the very least, I think it could be worth the test. I don\u2019t want to belabor this particular point because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s the most important of those we have to talk about. But it might not matter.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think I know exactly the app you\u2019re talking about and I do know that it\u2019s a great program.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It\u2019s a great app. Yeah. I\u2019ll just give another example. Long ago, when I started my first, let\u2019s call it, real business, I offered a 110% money back guarantee if the product didn\u2019t work and never questioned it. Just did it unflinchingly because frankly, the time that it would take me to police it would be so much more expensive than a certain degree of fraud.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Even if it\u2019s like 10%, 20% even of the people who requested it were fraudulent. Also, I should say in this case, this is a hard product being shipped via regular mail, and they would be able to just keep the product because having them ship it back and paying for shipping, it just wasn\u2019t worth it given the cost of goods. People were much better behaved than I expected.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It really didn\u2019t cause a problem. Assuming the product is good, this isn\u2019t a returns situation. So you could offer something like that, frankly. I think that the 110% back is really underutilized, but I feel like you were going to say something else. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> We have something along those lines, but not exactly. When people write, so sometimes, people do the free trial. And then they write into us and say \u201cEssentially, we love the free trial, but we just can\u2019t afford it. Do you have any scholarship programs or anything like that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And what we\u2019ve been going to right now is Mentava costs $500 a month, but if you tried the free trial and you loved it and you really want to keep using it and you\u2019re motivated enough to write us, we\u2019ll tell you that you can have Mentava for $100 a month, but we would like you to send us a video of your kid every week using Mentava, enjoying Mentava that we can use in social media, in marketing, because we want to run those ads, but we want to make sure that we have signed releases for any kids that we put into advertising or social media.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And we don\u2019t police that aggressively. I would say not everybody participating in that program has been sending us all the videos we would like them to send us. But like you said, mostly people are pretty good about it.<strong\/><\/p>\n<p>Tim Ferriss: Where would you like to go next? I can pull up lots of things. We can look at the website. I want to come back to the readiness check. Is there any reason to have people sign up and then do the readiness check as opposed to do an abbreviated readiness check, a two-minute, \u201cIs your kid ready?\u201d type of quiz?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I like that idea a lot. We\u2019ve been talking about that for a long time, just put the readiness check directly on the website.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, because if you had, is your kid ready, take the two-minute quiz, you could still accomplish the data capture of email address and so on and verification so that you can communicate with those people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And I think that\u2019s reflected in some of the mock-ups that I sent over. On the price, I don\u2019t know if you guys have approached this. I really think that selling the parents relief, not just the kid\u2019s speed is a big deal, that you don\u2019t have to be the teacher because the 500 can be anchored in a few different ways. $500 a month. Is it the same or is it less than a tutor? Well, let\u2019s just say it\u2019s the same.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And let\u2019s say they\u2019re equally effective, but there\u2019s one difference. And one is you\u2019re giving a kid a fish, meaning the teacher is motivating the kid versus you\u2019re teaching the kid to fish, meaning the kid is becoming a self-motivated, self-directed learner, then Mentava still wins, even if they\u2019re equally effective.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then furthermore, it\u2019s like if you have all these other tools and let\u2019s just say they\u2019re\u2014as you mentioned, you can get books, I don\u2019t know, 10 bucks, 20 bucks, 30 bucks, who knows? And then you\u2019re going to put in that time. It doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re going to be an absent parent. There are plenty of ways you can spend time with your kids. But if you want to create a self-directed learner and you also put a value on your time, if you can afford $500 a month, it\u2019s also kind of a no-brainer, right? But we can look\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s very true. I think we need to lean into that more because we\u2019ve had people I know personally who could absolutely afford Mentava. Usually, they are parents of only one child. This is their first child, and they say, \u201cI tried Mentava. It works, but I really want to be the one to teach my kid to read.\u201d And so they opt in with another product where they get to be the teacher. They actually want to be the teacher. But for a lot of parents who are busier, who have multiple kids see that value immediately. They cannot be the teacher for every single one of their kids. They want their kids to learn on their own, and we\u2019re the product for that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I love teaching. It\u2019s one of my favorite things in the world. I absolutely love teaching. But the selling point for me, if I were the stand-in parent, would be extrinsic reward\/pressure, teacher making the kid study versus kid becoming self-directed and excited about learning.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, that\u2019s a very easy choice for me.\u201d They\u2019re going to have plenty of time with teachers. They\u2019re going to have plenty of time with me coaching them or teaching them or going out and being curious about things in the real world. But it\u2019s like if that. How many minutes a day or per week? How much time do you suggest?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Fifteen to 30 minutes a day, depending on age.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. So okay, look. You got all day with your kids from when they wake up to when they go to bed, depending on the day and schooling and so on. But it\u2019s like 15 to 30 minutes is just getting them closer to being stoked about learning and able to actually take that stoke and put it into practice. It\u2019s like, okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Okay,<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Is that worth $500 a month? Yeah. For a lot of people, I think the answer is yes.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Do you mind if I just brain dump and then\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah, I love it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Then I want you to steer the ship a little bit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So the two minute, is your kid-ready quiz right up front, I think, would be an amazing email capture tool, but it would also be in service of the parents who are running at light speed with a million different things, exactly the kind of people who are probably considering something like this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think it\u2019s the type of thing that might also get shared, right? So in a sense you have user generated marketing, lead gen and a filter all at once. The selling the parents relief, not just the kids speed, as I mentioned, like the you don\u2019t have to be a teacher, how much is your time worth? Maybe there\u2019s something there. One of your lines that\u2014I think this is from the website, tell me, but we don\u2019t push kids, we stop making them wait. I think that\u2019s an amazing line.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Other words I\u2019d be a little more careful with, right? So the unusually fast learner, the gifted, any IQ elite top 1% kind of stuff, I think artificially constrains your market in a way that is unhelpful to Mentava and unhelpful to parents. Does that make sense? Yeah, I agree. Because the kid doesn\u2019t need to be a super genius to use Mentava and benefit from it. So I really like the idea of paying attention to that language so you aren\u2019t accidentally excluding a lot of parents whose kids would benefit from the product.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The free to school story, if that ends up being tenable, I think is\u2014it\u2019s a decent adjunct to other things you\u2019re doing, but it\u2019s also an example of playing defense instead of offense in a way. Does that make sense, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> It does make sense.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. It\u2019s like if people say this is just for rich kids, it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay. Fine.\u201d This is not what you\u2019re doing, but if you just focused on people who make 500K a year or more, that\u2019s a huge market. You\u2019re fine at $500 a month. It\u2019s like you don\u2019t. And it isn\u2019t just for rich kids, but I think that given the fact, and if I say anything, I\u2019m not supposed to say publicly, stop me, but you guys have four full-time employees. I\u2019m sure you have other contractors. You guys are going to be spinning a lot of plates, wearing a lot of hats. If you have a lot of unqualified leads emailing you, asking questions, requesting special treatment, that time is incredibly expensive for you guys internally, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I would just be inclined. If I were talking to someone, I had two glasses of wine, so I\u2019m playing a little loose, and someone\u2019s like, $500 a month, I\u2019d be like, \u201cWell, do you want something that really works and makes your kid not just stoked, but capable of learning faster, or do you want a video game that is disguised as education that\u2019s going to do nothing for them?\u201d If you want that, sure. There are a thousand other options.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you actually want something that works with people who understand product, then suck it up. How much did you spend on your kid\u2019s pants last month? How much does your stroller cost? Really? You\u2019re not going to spend. Come on. So that\u2019s how I would sort of hopefully productively bust their balls.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s how I would do it. I\u2019d be like, \u201cYeah, if you want something that works and you want something that the kid is going to request, as opposed to something that kind of works, that requires you to be a nag and police that the kid might push back on\u201d it\u2019s like, \u201cHow much is removing all that brain damage worth to you?\u201d And I understand that\u2019s probably not the text you put on the homepage, but let\u2019s see.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So on the online, you have done a good job of using X specifically, I would say. And the two examples you sent me of social media that had converted was basically a response, if I\u2019m remembering correctly, two examples of responding to people, right? Someone called basically what you\u2019re doing, snake oil and you\u2019re like, \u201cWell, here\u2019s a video of snake oil.\u201d And it was the twins, the two-year olds or two and a half year olds reading.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And then there was the other one with the educator. Those are good examples. I wouldn\u2019t have any critique around those. I would say that jumping into the culture war, even if it gets a lot of views, in a sense, forces readers to pick a side instead of picturing their own child, which is why I think the video of the two twins works so well.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So that\u2019s just a side note. And I know you have math coming so that you can move from the perception of reading app to learning for kids who are ready to move faster or something like that. I think we can leave that alone for a moment. We can come back to that, but I don\u2019t want to spend too much time on it because I think you get it, and you\u2019re branching out, and it makes sense. The pricing against tutors, I have hired\u2014look, I had two different coaches this week for rock climbing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I am a connoisseur of teachers and coaches and tutors. I\u2019ve used probably a hundred plus coaches of various types. And getting a tutor, managing a tutor, scheduling with the tutor, none of that is free. Even if the hourly cost of that tutor is commensurate with the cost of Mentava. However, there are other ways to make the price case, but this is one of those examples of what if you did nothing, coming back to that brain acronym that I love so much.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It was the first acronym. I\u2019ve heard all these SWOT acronyms, like strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats, all this stuff. But this was the first one where one of the prompts was, \u201cWhat if you did nothing?\u201d And I was like, \u201cThat is such a good question. What if you didn\u2019t justify the price and you were just like,\u201d Let\u2019s just find\u2014\u201d And look, this is going to be very unappetizing, maybe a turnoff for some people listening, but this is how Uber started. This is how a lot of companies start, is go after the easy customers, the people who have plenty of budget.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Later, you can use the initial cohort of wealthy people to subsidize product development, then you get economies of scale, you have more employees, blah, blah, blah, dot, dot, dot, and then you have more offerings at lower cost. But rather than trying to convince the edge cases, it\u2019s like maybe you just talk about the efficacy and take a different tack, I think it\u2019s tack as in the sailing, to get that done.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Look, I could give you six different examples of how you could make the price, could justify the price, but let me keep going. This is coming back to the parent\u2019s role because the parent\u2019s buying it, not the kid, right? Not to overly state the obvious, but you don\u2019t have to teach, you don\u2019t have to nag.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Now, you don\u2019t have to teach, might accidentally elicit a sense of guilt in parents because they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, I\u2019m just trying to foist the responsibility of education onto an app. I\u2019m a terrible parent. What\u2019s wrong with me?\u201d But if it\u2019s you don\u2019t have to nag, you don\u2019t have to police, you don\u2019t have to reward, you don\u2019t have to give cookies because the kid\u2019s just going to want to play this game, period, full stop, that\u2019s what we spend our time on, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s a huge one, right? Because some parents\u2014I love teaching. I want to teach a lot. So if the selling point to me where you don\u2019t have to teach, I\u2019d be like, \u201cOh, does that make me a bad parent? I actually do like teaching. Does that mean I\u2019m not engaged with my kid?\u201d But nagging and policing, nobody wants to do that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So choosing things that are an easy hell yes for parents, I think, makes a difference, and that\u2019s where the words matter. And that you don\u2019t have to teach. You don\u2019t have to nag. Beats the book. That beats the live tutor. It beats all that stuff. It\u2019s not like, \u201cI don\u2019t want to take the piano lesson with teacher X.\u201d It\u2019s like when you have Jake\u2019s kid being like, \u201cI want to play the letter game. I want to play the letter game.\u201d And he\u2019s like, \u201cMan, we just have to wait a few more months and then, okay, then you can play the letter game.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I kind of want to hop in on this because maybe this is my pathological honesty because I do believe we built a really delightful product that kids will want to use most of the time. But absolutely, sometimes, you do have to push a nag, I think, way less than anything else. But I\u2019m reluctant to say you won\u2019t have to push a nag.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, I think that that is where you finesse, right? I\u2019m coming in as\u2014I\u2019m not blind because I\u2019m familiar with the product, and I\u2019ve looked at the website and everything else, but I\u2019m not a parent with a kid who has used the product.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So instead of saying that, you can say parents don\u2019t want to nag. They don\u2019t want to police. They want a kid who can learn as fast. They want a kid who can learn at their own speed, even if that means fast. You can say that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yep. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That\u2019s a truthful statement, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I\u2019ll give you a bit of trivia that not many people know. So my name in Chinese is\u2014well, it was Fei Ting Chung. Now, it\u2019s Fe Yu Chung. And the reason I have that name is because Fei is for Ferriss, right? So there\u2019s some alliteration, but Ting Chung is Very Honest because I would just blurt things out that were clear or honest to me. And so my teacher was like, \u201cGood God, you are a pain in my ass.\u201d Okay. Your name is like Ferriss Too Honest, basically.\u201d I was talking to you, I can\u2019t mention which, but talking to another startup I\u2019m involved with, and they\u2019re about to have a huge launch, and I was like, \u201cExaggeration is death. Do not exaggerate.\u201d I was like, \u201cBecause if one statement can be falsified and it\u2019s a casual statement, it\u2019s going to call into question every other claim you make, and your competitors are going to fuck you.\u201d And they should.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you\u2019re exaggerating and inflating your claims, like, \u201cHey, you\u2019re going to reap what you sow.\u201d So I am on the same page. I think there are ways to word it where it is a completely truthful statement. And it may not be nag and please. It may be something else.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">No one wants to force their kid to learn. What would it be like if your kid wanted to learn and use it? You get the idea. And you could come up with 10 of these and just split test it with an Optimizely or whatever. You\u2019d probably have something homegrown that does a better job, but you get the idea. All right. Feel free to stop me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Is there a way to get an indication of how many sessions are initiated? Coming back to, yeah, sometimes, you have to push a little bit or prod or prompt. Maybe that\u2019s a nice delicate word to use, your kids. But do you have any idea of what percentage of sessions are initiated by a child versus a parent? I don\u2019t know how you would have that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think they\u2019re probably 100% parent initiated. We\u2019re talking mostly three and four year olds here.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Right, right. Running around like chickens with their head cut off. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s the sort of thing where it\u2019s just like the parent is responsible for saying, \u201cOh, it\u2019s that time. Let\u2019s do our Mentava again.\u201d And rather than it being a battle, then your kid is like, \u201cOh, okay. I guess I\u2019ll put down my Legos and do Mentava.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Okay. So I\u2019ve noticed in the investor update emails, and I\u2019ll add my personal preference here, but I will, I think, speak for a lot of investors. So I have a lot of portfolio companies and I don\u2019t invest all the time, but they add up. If a company\u2019s going to be successful, mega successful, it usually takes 10 to 12 years, in my experience. So that means if you\u2019re investing every year, you start to gather portfolio companies. The reason I mentioned that is that I get probably 10 to 20 investor updates, a month. And some of them are super long, yours are not super long. But if you have investor asks, I would put them at the very top. I would skip all the updates. I would skip all of the numbers. I would skip the runway. I would skip the new hires. I shouldn\u2019t say skip. I would defer. I would put it lower down.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But if the intent, because most of the people who are getting that, outside of your major investors, if you\u2019ve got board members, sure, give them the nitty-gritty. But the vast majority, I don\u2019t have voting rights. So the only way that I can really impart influence is by trying to be helpful, but I also am in an inbox with a million other things. So having the asks at the very top will get more help. I know that seems self-evident, but almost no founders do it. So that\u2019s just a quick suggestion.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the reason I brought up the investor updates also is that I feel like I\u2019ve seen in a number of the investor updates, something along the lines of, we just need to figure out how to drive more conversions through, I want to say paid advertising. And maybe I\u2019m misremembering, but that leads me to a question which is what channels actually convert and retain? TikTok, X, referrals, search, paid advertising. What is actually working best for you guys? Which might not be working well, but what is of the available options, what is working best for you guys? At not just conversion, because you could get garbage leads that sign up for trials and then don\u2019t convert. But for actual paying customers who are retained, what seems to be working best so far?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think our best customers are X, and word of mouth. And I think the reason for both of those is that our message gets in front of people who are receptive to hearing it. I would say that a big part of our struggle is top of funnel. How do we raise awareness with the right people? And I think what tends to happen on X is that, I get in an argument with someone who is basically arguing that kids should not be learning, or kids are learning too fast, or something like that. And then the entire internet piles on and I am kind of like the loud voice saying that kids should be learning as fast as they can learn. This is our thinking. I think people hear that and believe in the mission and because it\u2019s hard to make sophisticated product decisions about these nuanced products, they hear the mission and they\u2019re like, okay, this is a company that believes in a mission of very accelerated learning, which is something that I believe in too, that I don\u2019t hear a lot of people talking about.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019m at least willing to go out and try their software. And I think that\u2019s why we get people from X. And we have not been able to replicate that on, say, Meta ads. I think Meta\u2019s algorithm, basically, you give them your ads, you give them your videos and they put them in front of the people who engage with those videos the most. And so we absolutely have content that goes viral, that people engage with, that gets a lot of interaction and even gets very, very cheap leads, but they\u2019re not qualified leads. So they\u2019re not getting in front of the right people who care deeply about accelerated learning, and are willing to pay for it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Here\u2019s a tagline that came to mind. Less nagging for parents, faster learning for kids.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> You\u2019re not saying no nagging. Faster learning for kids. You probably put the kids first, right? Faster learning for kids, less nagging for parents, or something like that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I like that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Faster learning for kids, less brain damage for parents, whatever. You could test a bunch of them.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think one of the things that really sets us apart is our motivation design and our way to keep kids motivated and engaged. And we really have not found a way to talk about that in a way that gets any sort of traction. I\u2019ve tried, but a lot of the arguments that I get into are around topics like accelerated learning or phonics. Phonics is a big cultural touchpoint right now. But nobody really seems\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Really? There\u2019s a war going on about phonics I didn\u2019t know about?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> There is a huge war about phonics. For the past 30 years, schools have been debating over whether or not phonics is the right way to teach kids.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It seems like something you could test.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah. And they have tested it. Basically everybody outside of education, everybody in cognitive science, everybody in the rest of academia, completely understands that phonics is the only way to teach reading. Academia and teachers and schools have been the one holdout refusing to teach phonics, saying that all we have to do is teach kids to love reading, that if you show them a picture of a puppy and they say dog, then they got that right. They\u2019re reading because they understood the gist, they have comprehension.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Slippery slope of that one.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Understand. Wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> So we have not found a way to, we think that motivation is one of our biggest differentiators and just have not found a way to talk about that that engages people. But maybe this less nagging for parents is that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. I will say that, this may not matter, there may not be much collateral damage, but when I have seen some exchanges, I think that some percentage of the observers of those arguments might feel like it\u2019s Mentava versus teachers. And I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a great fight.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Agreed.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Right. Because there are plenty of teachers too who are just as frustrated as the parents, in a lot of ways. They\u2019re hamstrung. But, you know, so it goes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> We try very hard not to position ourselves as Mentava versus teachers, although I know it doesn\u2019t always come off that way. But to a big part, I think teachers are the victims here too. They were told in teacher\u2019s college that phonics will turn kids off of reading, and they believed what they were told, and they went out and taught to the best of their abilities, the best they knew how.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Let\u2019s come back to the word of mouth. This is something that everybody wants, but sometimes it\u2019s difficult to get high resolution on the mechanisms of word of mouth.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Do you have any insight on what that actually looks like? At what point, this is I think perhaps a helpful question, at what point do people suggest that someone else checks out Mentava? Is it after they\u2019ve been on the app for three months, six months? Is it as soon as they sign up and they are on 48 hours? At what point throughout their experience of Mentava do people share with others? Do you have any idea?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> We get that wow moment within the first week where parents, sometimes it\u2019s the first day, sometimes it\u2019s the first week, but very quickly the parents realize, if it\u2019s good for the family and the kid, parents realize very quickly, \u201cOh my God, this software actually works.\u201d Going from there to word of mouth, we have a lot of parents say to us that they tell their friends about it. There\u2019s some reluctance to tell their friends about it, because there\u2019s a certain amount of shame around using a $500 a month app. There\u2019s this sort of cultural shame around using your resources to allow your kids to get ahead. I have friends who can afford private school, who know that their kid is not getting a good education in their local public school, but they insist on sending them there because they feel they have a responsibility to not give their child an advantage. And I don\u2019t know, there\u2019s some deep-seated self-hatred there, but.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. God, I wish they would take the money they\u2019re not spending on their kid and put it into therapy first. But I mean, that maybe come off a little callous.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> We have tried incentivized referrals.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I was going to ask about. What is the incentive that you\u2019ve tried?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I believe we did as big as, if your friend signs up, we will give them a free month and we will give you a free month. So that\u2019s basically, that\u2019s $1,000 user acquisition cost. And we sent out coupon codes to our entire customer base, and we got zero referrals. Even though we know that customers are actively referring friends, we have a lot of people who sign up. I do an intro call with almost every customer who comes on board. And so we know that a lot of people came because they saw their friend use it through word of mouth, but the incentives didn\u2019t drive, they drove zero.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> What do you attribute that to?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> My guess is that our customer base at $500 a month is fairly wealthy. And so that $500 bonus that they get is not as valuable to them as the social currency that they either gain by referring this, or sort of lose by telling someone about this product that they feel guilty about using. And so I think that, yeah, it is an incentive, but they already had very strong incentives to tell their friends about it if they would love it or were reluctant to tell their friends about it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> What makes the people who do refer through word of mouth different from the archetype that you just described? The people who have some shame around it, and they don\u2019t want to burn social capital because what if their friend\u2019s like, \u201cOh my God, I didn\u2019t realize you\u2019re such a rich asshole.\u201d Or whatever. What makes the other people different, the ones who talk about it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know if they\u2019re different. What I\u2019ve heard from the people who do refer their friends is that they\u2019re very selective about who they mention it to. They have specific ideas about which of their friends would be receptive, and they tell those friends about it. And my theory is that they tell those friends about it anyway to help their friends out, and the $500 is not a driver of behavior.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Okay. Have you done multiple tests? Did you just do one incentive test?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah, we just did one.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. I mean, I do think the devil\u2019s in the details with a lot of these\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> That could be a two.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Right, I mean, for instance, one free month versus $500 credit, which sounds better? $500 credit sounds better, but it\u2019s the same thing. Also, and this may be unappetizing, but if the cost of delivering the product is zero, which makes a bunch of assumptions, around the associated costs of various things and customer support and duh duh duh duh. But if the cost of development is high, but the cost of delivery is low, you can afford to do very limited, first 100 people to get it, use a little scarcity, free year, if you refer three people. $6,000 value, if you get three people to sign up, whatever. I\u2019m pulling that out of my ass.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah, we can be more generous.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But it\u2019s like, if you tried that and you limited it to the first hundred people, you know your maximum downside cost. It\u2019s not this open-ended fog of scary expense because you\u2019ve already set a cap. I am a big fan, I mean, sometimes you have critical weaknesses, some Achilles heel that needs to be fixed. And I think that there are, I think the website hops to mind for me as an example of that, which I don\u2019t fault you for because you\u2019re doing so many things at once, but we will get to that. But also for me, I\u2019m like, look, if something isn\u2019t working, and it\u2019s just continually not working, which is not the case with the incentives because you only tried it once, I think that\u2019s worth testing. And also, it\u2019s because that is related to one of the two means that has proven most effective for acquiring customers who are retained, X and word of mouth.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But X is time-consuming. You got to write, you got to engage, you got to respond. Maybe you get lucky and there\u2019s an easy one that really pulls some weight, but you got to keep feeding the monster. Whereas if you figure out some type of flywheel that involves\u2014and incentives are just one tool in the toolbox, but really focusing on how you can facilitate word of mouth, and particularly if there\u2019s a prompting at that first peak of magic, the wow experience, if that\u2019s within 48 hours, boom, they get an email, or a notification of some type. If it\u2019s one week, it\u2019s within one week.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I think that could obviate the need for paid advertising. There are plenty of huge brands with monstrous ARR that never spend a dime on advertising, because they figure out the small levers to pull that in concert create a flywheel of some type for this type of referral generation. We will put these up for people watching the video. If you\u2019re on audio, I\u2019m afraid you\u2019re going to have to really use your imagination. Would you like to talk about the website or would you like to talk about any other challenges, goals? We\u2019ll probably touch on a lot of it as we look at the before and after on the website, but is there anything else that you would like to cover before we get to the website?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I guess, do you have any thoughts about very, very top of funnel? Just as parents are first exposed to Mentava, how we might want to think about positioning ourselves or messages that you think might reach out broadly?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Okay. Top of the funnel, it\u2019s like, get as many parents who see this sentence to be interested in Mentava, is that the question?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Or is it a question of marketing channels? Because a big top of the funnel is not always a good thing, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> If it creates a bunch of noise and garbage applications that are going to\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah. I\u2019m not saying go broad. I\u2019m saying what sort of messages might get the attention of the specific kind of customers we want, if they\u2019ve never heard of Mentava before?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, this is going to seem like a lazy response, but it\u2019s usually where I like to start because you\u2019ve thought a lot more about this than I have. What is on your short list at the moment, for how to do that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think the two that we\u2019ve been playing with are teach a kid to read, teach a preschooler to read, which we don\u2019t love because we feel like it doesn\u2019t differentiate us well. The other one that I think does differentiate us is talking about the mission, talking about acceleration, talking about schools not supporting fast learners, but then there\u2019s kind of a deeper\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How are people seeing this?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. In terms of top of the funnel, the phrasing that you were just mentioning, or the taglines, how would people see these across all marketing? Facebook, X, website, everywhere, or somewhere else?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Say TikTok, X, and Meta, Facebook, Instagram ads are where we get the most volume.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, I mean, look, my beginner\u2019s eyes, uninformed, knee-jerk response would be, \u201cMy daughter made more progress in one week with Mentava than six months in kindergarten.\u201d You start with the testimonial. And not to be too Glengarry Glen Ross, but for those who haven\u2019t seen the Alec Baldwin sequence, it\u2019s very short, you should watch it. But AIDA, A-I-D-A, \u201cDo I have your attention? Are you interested? Have you made your decision for Christ?\u201d Got to watch the clip, folks. I\u2019ll link to it in the show notes. And then action is the last piece, right? But that type of testimonial is what I would use.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> That makes sense.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I would test.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> We haven\u2019t tried that. That makes a lot of sense. We\u2019ll go for it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Because you hit a few things at once with that. If a company says, \u201cWe are the best,\u201d you\u2019re like, \u201cOf course you\u2019re going to say that. What do you give me next to prove that you\u2019re the best?\u201d Testimonial gets around that. And fortunately, you\u2019re not dealing with a medical product or something where you have structure function claim restrictions, which are very important to have. And thank God we have the FDA and FTC and all that stuff. But in this particular case, I don\u2019t think you have too many restrictions about how you can use testimonials, assuming you have written permission from the people who provided those testimonials. And man, the mock-ups that were created for the website, for a revision of the website, are one thing. But if you were like, \u201cYou know what? We can\u2019t make. I\u2019m afraid the internet is broken. We cannot create any new pages.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cBummer.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, then make your main page the testimonial page.\u201d That\u2019s what I would do.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> We\u2019ve talked about that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I would make the main page the testimonial page. And then you have a persistent popup in the middle of the screen that\u2019s like, \u201cIs your kid ready? Take the two-minute quiz.\u201d If I\u2019m playing with applying constraints, if we cannot create a new website, is the current homepage the one that should be the homepage? Maybe, maybe not.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I feel like I\u2019m getting too into the weeds, but I feel like this is exactly where your expertise is coming through that yeah, of course, starting with the testimonial. If I did a short video, like a, I don\u2019t know, a 60-second-long TikTok video, where would you go after the testimonial? What would the beats of that video be for you?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, here\u2019s my hot take, and it could be totally wrong. I mean, everything I\u2019m saying could be wrong. But my hot take is that the people who can spend 500 a month, and are busy and value their time and their kid, this is not going to be a fair assumption for everyone on TikTok, but I don\u2019t think that is where the people making the buying decisions are spending most of their time. I could be wrong. I mean, there are younger men and women I know who spend plenty of time on TikTok. Do you have any idea of who is making the purchase decision? How many males versus females are actually putting in their credit card information to buy this right now? Which, look, that\u2019s a very heteronormative question, but you guys get the idea.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s roughly fifty fifty judging from the customer calls that I do. In the beginning, it was very heavily male, but I think that was just my audience at the time, and now it feels a lot more balanced.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah, you probably don\u2019t have this information. Any idea on the age, the sweet spot age range using past customer data of your current customer avatar? If I said to you, okay, guess what? You only have one opportunity to ever sell Mentava, that\u2019s the bad news. The good news is I\u2019m going to put you on stage in front of an audience of 5,000 people, but they all have to be of one particular demographic\/personality\/\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yes. Give me\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u2014makeup. Give me the census data, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Give me age 35 to 45, first generation immigrants who work at tech companies, who value education, who see it as a ladder to a better life, and are willing to pay money to make their kids successful.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Okay. I\u2019m guessing those people are not on TikTok. So the beats of the video, honestly, it\u2019s a tough one for me to answer off the cuff, but I think in part because, it may not be the right medium. Where I think video matters is showing actual kids using Mentava and learning with Mentava. Here\u2019s a crazy question, and I think I failed my computer IQ test for the day, because maybe it\u2019s something obvious. Is it possible to turn on audio for the current video that is right in the middle of your homepage when I open it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> In Chrome, I kept trying to figure out how to turn on the audio because I\u2019m like, it\u2019s not really\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Oh, is it possible for you to turn on the audio?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I wanted to hear what the kids were saying while they were using the software, but I could not figure it out, which could be user error.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> That was a request that we were planning to do. I don\u2019t know if it may not have gotten done. Yeah, that was an oversight. Good catch.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. So that does nothing for you. And it is, at least on a 13-inch MacBook, that is the entire screen on Chrome.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Brutal.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And I\u2019m like, okay. So if we come back to the website, and I\u2019ll just give people a visual description, and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll throw it up. It\u2019s got a very familiar layout, which I think is, there\u2019s nothing wrong with this familiar layout, but you got Mentava company name top left. You have a menu bar at the top, parents, teachers, about reviews, case studies, sign up, login, and then you have get started at the top right. Then you\u2019ve got the giant video playing with no audio, and a cute little character, presumably from the Mentava app itself. And then under the video that is auto playing, it says, \u201cMost education companies try to lift the floor. We want to remove the ceiling. Mentava was built for unusually fast learners. Try it for free.\u201d And the try it for free is a button. Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If we were to look at a heat map of what I just described, meaning what is clicked on the most, do you have any read on which elements I just mentioned get clicked the most? Yeah. Which doesn\u2019t, at least my experience was didn\u2019t do anything. Yeah. Okay. I think, and I\u2019m sure they\u2019re called something else now, but way back in the day, you could get a heat map and it would be so called because, things would get redder and redder and redder the more they were clicked. And so you could, at a view, look at a website and with these tiny little circles indicating clicks that were colored in the way I just described, you could get a pretty good idea of what people were clicking on or trying to click on, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Well, if it works for you, let me pop open some mock-ups that were created using Claude in an incredibly short period of time. It is just insane what you can do these days. Shout out to Lenny Rachitsky, who had some really good tips on how to use these LLMs for design, turning your LLM into a, or maybe your AI into a world-class designer. All right, so I\u2019m looking at the website right now, and if I go right now, a 13 inch, I did not look on mobile, which I probably should have. But on the MacBook, which is kind of my workhorse daily driver, the try it for free is where the screen ends, right? So my world of Mentava on first contact is what I just described. And then if we scroll down, you got best reading app for kids, and you got all these amazing testimonials, which I think do a hundred times more for you than what I just described.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Now, if we go to the mock-ups that I sent over, and we can play around with these because they\u2019re not perfect, but you\u2019ll notice a couple of differences. So I\u2019ll point out some of those differences. So instead of get started in the top right, which is that button, and I still, well, it\u2019s replicated in another place on the homepage, but it\u2019s, \u201cIs my child ready?\u201d Instead of get started, maybe it helps, maybe it doesn\u2019t. Something that\u2019s very easy to split test. Then the actual tagline on this mock-up, I don\u2019t love, I\u2019ll be honest. I like it more than the, \u201cMost education companies try to lift the floor. We want to remove the ceiling.\u201d I do prefer what is in the mock-ups to that, but it\u2019s not where I would put it. I think maybe\u2014what was it? Less nagging for parent, faster learning for kids.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Faster learning, less nagging for parents.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Less nagging for parents is maybe what you test, but some kids are ready to read before school is ready to teach them. Okay. I don\u2019t like that because ready and read throw me off. Frankly, they\u2019re just. I know that sounds ridiculous given we\u2019re talking about learning to read, but they\u2019re too similar. So I would not use that phrasing. But then below that, we get an idea of what we\u2019re actually talking about. Because when you say most education companies try to lift the floor, we want to remove the ceiling, it\u2019s like, well, who are you selling to? What is it? Education company? Is it a clinic? Is it a company that sells consoles to nursery schools or daycare centers? It\u2019s not as clear, whereas Mentava\u2019s expert reading instruction for your child. Oh no, no, no, no. It\u2019s just too wordy. Mentava is expert reading instruction, that\u2019s terrible, but your child will actually want to do, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So you could say Mentava teaches reading that your child will actually want to do, or something like that. 15 to 30 minutes a day, a coach on call, and nobody in your house has to be the teacher. It\u2019s not quite right, but below that you have two buttons, take the two-minute readiness check, and then how it works. And then a video that could auto play or not, but I would definitely have audio on there. So that\u2019s one option. And then right below that, and I\u2019m not convinced this is the way to do it, but it makes it very explicit below the readiness check, $500 a month per child. Most families finish in 6 to 12 months, free 14 day trial, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That\u2019s one approach. You could also, rather than make the $500 fine print, you could just lead with it. Mentava is, you could have what we had before, faster learning for kids, less nagging for parents, if you want something that works and not something that\u2019s cheap, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right. We have absolutely had luck leading with the price. We\u2019ve had customers tell us we use you because you cost $500 a month, because we knew there\u2019s no way you could be a scam if you managed to charge that much money.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> You can\u2019t survive. You can\u2019t survive for years if it\u2019s not working.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yep.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yep. Some of these other mock-ups I sent you, I do like the tagline on the second one better than the first one, for children who are ready before school is. A bunch of the other copy would be replaced, and I think that one is too sassy looking. It looks like it\u2019s trying to sell a tablet, which is not what you guys are doing. Watch the 60-second demo or whatever. The \u201cNot a score\u201d mock-up I don\u2019t particularly like, but I do like in the third option, leading with the testimonials.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I like that too.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Right? So for instance, let\u2019s imagine maybe the first mock-up, but some kids are ready to read before school is ready to teach them. Man, that\u2019s a mouthful. It\u2019s a tongue twister for me. If it were faster learning for kids, less nagging for parents, make your child love learning, right? Whatever, something like that. And then on the top right, much like the third mock-up, there was this big testimonial which was like, my daughter learned more in one week with Mentava than six months in kindergarten. And then there was another one maybe for\u2014you pick it, you\u2019ve got a million of these testimonials. You\u2019ve got an embarrassment of riches when it comes to the testimonials. Maybe if I were going to pick from the ether one other type of testimonial, I saw a number of testimonials that were like, we got rid of our tutor and did this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Maybe that\u2019s the other one. Right? Just so you address that, what about this? What about the comparable, the cost of it? You just have a testimonial do some of that heavy lifting for you. I mean, you have so many good testimonials. These are real testimonials.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201c<strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> \u201cLast fall he didn\u2019t know how to read his letters. Now he can read his baby brother a book before bed.\u201d Like what? WTF? Are you serious? \u201cYou guys changed our lives. There\u2019s not a world where I could teach a child to read without your app.\u201d I mean, these testimonials are crazy. So aesthetically you have some choices to make. Some of these are a little too sterile. The last page of mock-ups I think are a little more friendly, like the second to last one would be a little too busy and a little too like, did our web designer take LSD? But you get the idea. I\u2019m just going to note what I like about these things. So the testimonials, I would 100% test having the testimonials very prominent. And just looking at your homepage as a print advertisement effectively, you want to have a clean visual progression through the piece.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Generally people are going to be pulled through a graphic and then to the largest headline, then to the second largest. So making sure that the visual tracking isn\u2019t too pinball machine. So frankly, it\u2019s like if I were going to be really nitpicky and try to pull something from Ogilvy, I would say the\u2014look, you could have the video on the left instead of the right and then the headline on the right if we\u2019re talking about people who track from left to right with reading. But what I do like about this third one is that it\u2019s got a couple of bubbles on top of the kid learning, 15 minutes a day. These would have to be fact checked obviously and audited to make sure. But 15 to 30 minutes a day, a real coach for you on the couch in pajamas, whatever some of the main features are, and then take the two-minute readiness check. Can you speak to the real coach or the coaching aspect? Is that a thing or is that just a hallucination?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah. So when you sign up, we have the Mentava parent app and even during the free trial, we prompt you to book a call with me and chat about where do you think your child is stuck on? What have you been having issues with? How is the free trial going? And then you have the parent app where you can chat with us 24\/7 and we will get back to you as fast as we can. We use that a lot for customer support, but also parents are confused about whether their kids are engaging the right way and we can let them know and get them back on the right path.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> How much do you sacrifice, and you can tell me what the exact bracket is, but on this third mock-up, something that was put right above the headline, not saying that\u2019s the right place for it, but a reading program for curious three to seven year olds. Is that an accurate description of the product? Would you say that\u2019s the sweet spot in terms of ages or what is the ideal age range?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I\u2019d say three to five.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Three to five. Okay, great. So reading program for three to five year olds. How much do you lose by saying three to five? That\u2019s maybe not the right way to phrase the question. But for instance, Jake came in. What I\u2019m trying to figure out is how much noise and time-consuming activities are introduced by having people try this too early versus just saying, you know what? It\u2019s not for two year olds. That\u2019s going to be like 90% failure rate so let\u2019s just say three to five. Do you feel like that would help or hinder results?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I\u2019m very comfortable saying it\u2019s probably not for two year olds. I think the two-year olds that this works for, although we\u2019ve had a couple, are very rare.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Okay. So if you were to give an age range right up front as a way of discouraging people who are ultimately maybe going to be frustrated, would three to five be the bracket? Would it be two and a half to five?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I would actually say three and a half.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Three and a half. Okay, great. And none of these design ideas are permanent decisions, right? It\u2019s a living, breathing website, you can change it. But what I\u2019ve found with the startups I\u2019ve worked with and also just with all the stuff that I\u2019ve launched myself is being very clear about who you are for and who you are not for makes everything else easier, particularly when you are explicit about it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Can you give some examples of what that means? Because we want to do that, but I think we\u2019re not sure how.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, what that means is if someone says, like in the case of <em>The 4-Hour Workweek<\/em>, which I think crossed your path many, many years ago, in the case of <em>The 4-Hour Workweek<\/em>, it\u2019s like I would get these questions when I did media around or even from my editor early on. It\u2019s like, well, how can employees in big companies use this? And I\u2019d be like, frankly, it\u2019s not ideal for them. There are things they can use and let\u2019s just say 20% of it I think is going to be very, very valuable to them, but it\u2019s really designed for people who are in a job but want to experiment with designing their own lifestyle vis-a-vis starting a company of some type, ideally product and not service. And that happens to be a huge market. You don\u2019t have to please everyone. And even if you tried, it\u2019s not going to be possible. So that would be one example.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the case of, for instance, there\u2019s a company that I\u2019m involved with, it\u2019s probably 30% of my protein calories called Maui Nui. Maui Nui Venison, wild harvested venison from Hawaii. And it\u2019s the most nutrient dense red meat you can buy, period, full stop. And it\u2019s expensive. It is. If you think Mentava is expensive, no way. Maui Nui Venison is much more expensive. But in my case, I\u2019m like the one place\u2014when I have kids, it\u2019ll change. But healthcare and nutrition and exercise, I\u2019m not going to try to get the Goldilocks perfect amount. I\u2019m happy to overspend to ensure that I am getting the best. And it turns out there are plenty of people who fit that bill. Even if you just had professional sports teams, collegiate sports teams at the high end and military, that can still be a really sizable business. So that\u2019d be another example. They don\u2019t hide it. You very quickly determine that this is going to be expensive.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> So it\u2019s not so much like a framing of the messaging. It\u2019s just like price tag is there, they\u2019re unapologetic about it. It\u2019s just not something they pay attention to.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, I would say that there is one facet, which is price. I\u2019d say price, it\u2019s just a very clear delineator. So rather than use four paragraphs to describe something that is probably accidentally going to insult a bunch of people one way or the other, it\u2019s just like\u2014I think there are ways that you could skin the cat. Oh, that\u2019s a terrible expression. I wonder where it came from. I think about a lot of these things, like you can have your cake and eat it too? I\u2019m like, where does that come from? If you have your cake, of course you\u2019re going to eat your cake. Why is that double dipping? It doesn\u2019t make any sense. In any case, the point is you could say something\u2014I mean, maybe there\u2019s something about, I\u2019m sure there is, I would just have to spend more time on it, but the teaching your kid to fish as opposed to giving them a fish, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Traditional education gives your kid a fish and forces them to eat it. What if they loved learning how to fish and all it took was 15 minutes on a tablet and you did not have to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I\u2019m shooting from the hip here, But I do think that there are\u2014I mean, I\u2019ll take another stab at it. Another stab would be for parents who realize that the education system in the US is broken in one fundamental way: eager, fast learners cannot learn at their own pace. It\u2019s not perfect, but it\u2019s edging directionally, I think, towards something useful.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> There are tons of examples, right? And you could look at punk rock bands, you could look at fashion brands. How do they position? Very often, they\u2019re very good at making a stark contrast between our people and not our people, which this is coming back to the do nothing. That may not be a task worth spending a lot of time on, but there are a lot of ways that you can distinguish. I think who you\u2019re for is a lot more important than who you\u2019re not for, stating who you\u2019re for.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019ll give you an example. This is something I\u2019m working on right now myself because the book that I was alluding to, it\u2019s primarily a book on saying no. Which I\u2019m working on the positioning of this right now, because the first third of the book is how to identify or create the few things to say yes to that actually make all the difference. So it\u2019s not exclusively a book on saying no, it\u2019s a book on making really high leverage decisions. However, the crux of the book, because there\u2019s so many, it\u2019s very easy to say yes. I mean, just everyone\u2019s got promiscuous over commitment in their lives and a lot of tech is designed to push us into the realm of distraction, infinite distraction. But with saying no, I\u2019m going to get a bunch of pushback and I address this pushback in the book, but I\u2019m going to get lots of things right off the cuff on social. I would bet my entire net worth on it, which is must be nice, you\u2019re already successful so you can just say no.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019m too kind for that. You\u2019re just saying this after the fact. I bet in the beginning you had to say yes to everything. There are a couple of pieces that I feel very confident are going to come up and I have somewhat of a binary choice. I can try to respond to all those and I can try to convince them otherwise, which I could. I could do it, but it\u2019ll be very time-consuming and it\u2019s not going to make me particularly happy. I\u2019m not going to enjoy it, let me put it that way, because I\u2019ll have to do it repeatedly over and over and over again because I\u2019m like, did you read my blog post? No, of course 99 out of 100 people did not. Well, 999 out of 1,000, probably, even worse ratio, didn\u2019t see it. Or I can just say, you know what? You\u2019re right. This is for people who\u2019ve had just the bare modicum of success where they have figured out maybe one thing they\u2019re good at where they have too much inbound and too many requests of their time. That\u2019s who this book is for.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That, by the way, is still well over a hundred million people. I do not need to worry about an audience for the book, but if I try to boil the ocean and somehow homogenize it into appealing to everybody, the game is lost. I\u2019m dead. So these are the types of things I\u2019m thinking about where it\u2019s like, okay, well, if I\u2019m stating who it\u2019s for, how precise do I get? How much do I reduce the aperture of the description? And it might make sense to really, really reduce it. I mean, when I launched <em>The 4-Hour Workweek<\/em>, I was like\u2014in the background, in my mind, I was like, I am pitching this to 20 to 35 year old tech-savvy males in San Francisco. Phase one. Phase two, same kind of psychographics, female, same city. Next, same thing, New York. And then the sort of sphere of available readers was expanded to a handful of other major cities. And then before you know it, okay, fine. Then 16 year olds in Oklahoma are reading it and 60 year olds in Sri Lanka and so on. But if you try to start there, you\u2019re fucked.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> So when you have this very specific idea of who you\u2019re trying to reach, what are the specific behavioral changes does that drive for you? Is it specific messages that you\u2019re hammering on or\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Marketing in that case, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Where you\u2019re running ads or the messages that you\u2019re running?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> All of it. I always like to look for the uncrowded channel. So in my case, I don\u2019t think this would be appropriate for Mentava, but when I\u2019m launching something, I often look for, always look for, don\u2019t always find, but I always look for the fast-growing undervalued channel. And if I can\u2019t find that, or even if I can, I then ask\u2014and that could be channel or format. Then I ask what is the most uncrowded path to communicating with the taste makers in that sphere? So I\u2019ll give you a concrete example.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the case of <em>The 4-Hour Workweek<\/em>, which was published April 2007, 20-year anniversary coming up next year, which is insane, but there was this relatively new thing that had hit a critical mass and it was called a blog, which is short for web log. When I reached out to bestselling authors to ask them about their recent launches and I asked them what was a waste of time, what under delivered, what over delivered, what surprised you, what came back was TV is becoming less important for prescriptive nonfiction or nonfiction in general, NPR marketplace, there are a handful of NPR shows, and there\u2019s this new thing, it\u2019s really weird. They\u2019re called blogs and I did this thing I never expected. I put this excerpt up, I did a little interview, sold more books than some gigantic morning show in New York City that gets all the fanfare.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I was like, okay, well, I think I\u2019m going to push all my chips in on this thing called blogs after I heard that six or seven times. And then the question was, well, how do I communicate with bloggers? And the answer was not email because that was the most crowded channel. So I spent my marketing budget basically for <em>The 4-Hour Workweek<\/em> flying to conferences to meet these people in person. WebExpo, can\u2019t recall where that was held, but I spent all my time in the lounges, didn\u2019t really do anything in the panels. And at the time, I\u2019m not going to give the whole Dr. Evil life story, but met Robert Scoble. I have a lot of rules and thoughts around this type of approach, but flash forward, I\u2019ll give a different example, <em>4-Hour Chef<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>4-Hour Chef<\/em> was launching in 2012. I asked the same questions, reached out to people, asked them the questions I already mentioned, and they said, you know, radio\u2019s getting less important. It\u2019s not having quite the same effect on sales as my last few book launches, but I went on this one thing called a podcast, and I was like, huh, okay. Well, I\u2019d heard of podcasting, but I thought it came to the fore for a brief moment and then kind of flickered out and died. But that wasn\u2019t true. It was just very, very early innings in podcasting in 2012. And when I launched <em>The 4-Hour Chef<\/em>, I was on Joe Rogan before Joe Rogan was Joe Rogan. Back in 2012, it was like, Joe Rogan, you mean the guy who used to be on <em>Fear Factor<\/em>? Like that was the reference. It wasn\u2019t like, oh, the guy who was in the Oval Office and pushed through the executive order and is on every major news outlet every day where they\u2019re quoting his podcast?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Man, this is incredible. I mean, that whole story is amazing. So <em>Nerdist<\/em>, Marc Maron, Adam Carolla, these OGs in the game, I was able to see the effects of that firsthand. Now later I took that experience and used it to inform starting my own in 2014. But for each book with <em>Tools of Titans<\/em>\u2014no, was it <em>Tools of Titans<\/em>? I also did a bunch of experiments with BitTorrent with <em>4-Hour Chef<\/em> and gave away the audiobook for free and all these experiments. They don\u2019t all work out. I don\u2019t think the BitTorrent experiment really panned out as I would\u2019ve hoped, but that\u2019s how I workshop. I do think, and look, you\u2019re the CEO of the company, you don\u2019t necessarily have the time to do this, but I imagine that you have the opportunity on these calls that you get on with the live coaching. I think in-person workshopping is just the fastest way to get feedback, real feedback.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because sure, you can get feedback that is measurable in the forms of clicks and so on, and you can use user testing and see how people are reacting to a website, which I think is interesting. If you have a webcam on, you can look at their face and where they pause, which is not going to be transmitted if you\u2019re only getting click-through data or click data in the case of a heat map, let\u2019s say. But when you\u2019re talking to people in person and trying to explain what you do, it\u2019s like, do they lean in or do they lean back? Do they follow up with a question or they\u2019re like, oh, interesting. If I\u2019m at a party and someone\u2019s like, what do you do? I\u2019m like, I write books. 99% of the time, even if they don\u2019t want to talk to me, they\u2019re going to ask, what kind of books?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On the other hand, if I\u2019m like, I\u2019m an accountant, and I have some accountants I love, but if I\u2019m like, I don\u2019t really want to be at this party, and they\u2019re like, what do you do? I\u2019m like, an accountant, they\u2019re like, oh yeah, that must be a job. There\u2019s no follow-up and you can get a feel for which messaging is working. Or if you give them a paragraph and then two or three people at a bar, you\u2019re just having casual conversations with at an event, they all ask about the same little thing that you\u2019ve been discounting that has been a minor cameo in your messaging as opposed to the leading headline. And you\u2019re like, you know what? Maybe I should test that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah. Actually, that\u2019s brilliant. And it makes me think of comics, like trying out at open mic nights. I\u2019m leaving so much on the table. I\u2019m doing all these intro calls with our new customers. I should be asking them, if I said this, how would you have reacted to it? What were the pain points that got you to sign up? I should be at networking events, trying more taglines and seeing what gets people interested in having longer conversations with me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. You\u2019re going to be having these conversations anyway. And just like it\u2019s more signal if you ask someone to buy and they actually pay as opposed to do you prefer A or B? Similarly, it\u2019s not bad to ask, do you prefer A or B, but the fidelity of that signal isn\u2019t as strong in my opinion. It\u2019s not as reliable as if you mention a few lines and then just wait. And if they don\u2019t follow up and two or three people don\u2019t ask follow-up questions, that\u2019s a problem. But if they latch onto something, you\u2019re like, okay, that wasn\u2019t organic. That was a proactive move on their part. It wasn\u2019t in response to a question. They\u2019re not trying to appease me necessarily. Maybe they are, maybe there\u2019s a component of people pleasing or just being social, but that\u2019s why you have to talk to more than one person.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I\u2019m like, <em>The 4-Hour Workweek<\/em> was workshopped. I mean, I didn\u2019t intend on writing a book, but it was notes from a class that I taught twice a year. It was a guest lecture. It wasn\u2019t an ongoing class, but I got to see what didn\u2019t work. It was very much like a standup comic. If I tried a joke and it fell flat twice, I was like, kill it. Yank it. That\u2019s got to go. It\u2019s not working. So I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s helpful, but there are other things you can use. I mean, for instance, with some of these mock-ups or if you\u2019re testing copy options, I think it\u2019s most valuable if it\u2019s on your own website because you control it and you can try to discern intent to purchase.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">However, there are many services that do this. I don\u2019t know how I ended up finding this one. There\u2019s one called PickFu, P-I-C-K-F-U. We\u2019ll put the branding aside, but instant consumer feedback, split testing and market research. And so they\u2019ve got their fancy social cred with these logos, HBO Max, L\u2019Oreal, Wayfair, et cetera, have supposedly used it. But you can, I believe\u2014I think it\u2019s PickFu that\u2019s allowed me to do this. It might have been another similar platform, but basically picking Amazon Prime members and then serving up\u2014 You can spec out your demographics, and then it just surfaces three options. And the reason this can be helpful\u2014well, there are a few reasons. I use this for split testing different aspects of the design and packaging around the Coyote card game, which I created with Exploding Kittens, which came out, I don\u2019t know, a year or two ago, which was a really fun experiment.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019ve never had anything in thousands of Walmart and Target stores, which is super fun, but you\u2019re not going to get much data from Amazon, and you don\u2019t really want Amazon to be your debutante ball where you show up in your new dress for the first time and see if people like it. I do not like taking that type of risk. And there was internal debate. I mean, there were diverging opinions. And in the case of Mentava, it\u2019s like, I don\u2019t know what your traffic looks like. So if you are going to get a statistically significant signal with which you\u2019re going to make an important decision about something, you might just not have the volume necessary.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Maybe you do, but maybe you don\u2019t. And in this case, it\u2019s like, look, if I want 5,000 people to vote on something in 72 hours, I can do that. It\u2019s a function of cost, and maybe it\u2019s like 500 bucks, 600 bucks. It\u2019s very affordable. And you could very easily\u2014I can\u2019t recall what the competitors are, but you could use Claude or ChatGPT or whatever to ask, what are the three most compelling competitors to PickFu with similar pricing? Because some of them are going to be very, very, very expensive intended for large enterprise. They do the same thing, frankly. It\u2019s gussied up a little bit in a tuxedo and you have to do a sales call or they demo and then quote you a price. If you see that and you\u2019re just looking for fast, quick and dirty, then I wouldn\u2019t proceed. But these are all different tentacles that are all out probing that bring information back to the central brain that then determines which I want to split test in a place with higher stakes, but better signaling for purchase intention, which would be your website, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And you can do it really fast. I\u2019m famously impatient. I do not want to wait weeks and weeks and weeks. So I\u2019m like, okay, cool. 72 hours over the weekend? Great. I\u2019ll just let this run and then on Monday we can look at it because if we got\u2014and if it\u2019s an edge case where we\u2019ve got something that\u2019s like, okay, well, it\u2019s like 49% or 51%. Don\u2019t be too cheap on this because you can get a false positive on something. I mean, you did more math by eighth grade than I did throughout all of high school, so I don\u2019t need to tell you about statistics. But the point is, don\u2019t do the bare minimum because very often the results will flip when you get just a larger sample size.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> These tips are so helpful because I think it makes me realize how many opportunities we\u2019re leaving on the table to iterate with our messaging and get it dialed in. So I\u2019m pretty excited about this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, let\u2019s throw out a prompt for people who are still listening or watching this. Let Niels know. Look at the website, mentava.com, check it out. Of the things we\u2019ve talked about, what has resonated? What should the tagline be? What language or features or anything have resonated most? Just let them know on X, right? Tag him @NielsHoven. That\u2019s @N-I-E-L-S-H-O-V-E-N. And trust me, Niels will be paying attention.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I will be.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So check it out. Is there anything else that we should cover? I mean, I feel like we have hit a lot. I don\u2019t feel like we need to spend a ton of time on competition. I mean, I did a competitive analysis, but I do feel like you\u2019re heavily differentiated. But if there is a particular competitive snag that you run into and you\u2019re like, oh God, Newman, they brought up whatever again, then we could talk about it. But if not, then we probably don\u2019t need to spend too much time there, right? I mean, you got the cheap reading apps. I don\u2019t think we need to spend time on that. Teach yourself books and kits. We got live online tutors. Then, we\u2019ve got kind of like the super mega, super comprehensive localized options like Alpha School which are just a different category altogether.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So I\u2019m not sure we need to spend time on that. Big fan of Alpha School, by the way. It\u2019s just a different thing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> They use us\u2014my kid is using their homeschool program right now.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> They\u2019re investors also.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Oh, nice. I didn\u2019t realize that. That\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah. Joe Liemandt was like, \u201cI will take your entire round right now if you let me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That\u2019s cool. Yeah. Joe is very smart.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Funny story, he may not realize this. Probably doesn\u2019t. Why would he? But I almost ended up working for Trilogy Software out of college. The reason I fell in love with Austin is because I made it to the finals round of interviews and they flew out the finalist to Austin and gave us a whole whirlwind tour and kind of\u2014I don\u2019t think it was wining and dining, mostly just dining, but they made it really fun.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I didn\u2019t make the cut. In retrospect, I guess, thank God, right? Blessing in disguise. Kind of forced me to really scrap for a while which was good for me. I\u2019ve been in Austin for more than a decade, still haven\u2019t connected with Joe. So that\u2019ll happen eventually.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Anything come to mind that we should cover? I\u2019m not sure if there\u2019s anything outstanding. Just while we\u2019re here, if there\u2019s anything else that you\u2019d like to chat about.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Is there\u2014do you have any insights on getting in front of people who aren\u2019t actively looking for your product or who aren\u2019t actively trying to solve a problem, like don\u2019t know they have the problem yet?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Tell me more about that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> The issue about parents not realizing how much school is going to hold back their kids until they\u2019re\u2014like, it\u2019s too late or that your best opportunities for acceleration are even before your kid gets to school.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. So the question is any thoughts on how to get in front of those people?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah. They say you want to be the painkiller. You want to solve the problem that your customer knows they have. I think for a lot of our customers, they don\u2019t realize that this is a problem yet. They don\u2019t realize how far their kid is from their potential or one of the strongest reasons I have for teaching your kids to read early is because when they hit school, your school is going to try and hold them back. And being able to say, \u201cMy kid can already read. You need to give them more opportunity,\u201d is one of your strongest negotiating levers.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. That\u2019s a great point. I really like that. Let me do a Rashomon multi-directional thing on this question. The first is coming back to like, \u201cWhat if I did nothing?\u201d One position I could try to take, it might not be justifiable, is the people who are using your product understand the problem. So just spend a bunch of focused time on the referral engine for those people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Then, you don\u2019t have to explain anything because chances are they\u2019re not going to have to explain anything either because their cohort of friends, i.e., parents with kids, will be cut from the same cloth. Then, it\u2019s a question of, \u201cHow do you congregate the converted versus how do you convert the non-believers?\u201d which I think is\u2014I think that may be a better question but\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think there is a lot there about, like, giving our customers the tools to let their friends know about this problem that maybe their friends don\u2019t know about yet. They are going to have that opportunity to explain it if we can give them the words for it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. I mean, I\u2014I would also say that the\u2014if you had a two-minute readiness test, make it interesting, make it\u2014if the parents never end up using Mentava, how can you make that as illuminating and useful as possible so that people\u2014that would be a worthwhile thought exercise. Namely, how can I make this two-minute readiness test or, like, \u201cIs your kid ready?\u201d or\u2014there\u2019s probably a better question to ask, better wording for that, but is there a\u2014I cannot tell you. There was this thing a couple of years ago, I don\u2019t remember what it was selling. It was definitely selling something to be clear. This was not just some questionnaire online for fun, but it was like\u2014this is a bit risque. Hope those three-year-olds aren\u2019t listening to this but\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I cannot wait.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> It was like a sex compatibility test and you would take this thing and then your girlfriend or boyfriend or spouse would fill it out or whatever. And then\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Oh, Mojo Upgrade. I remember it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> And then, it would tell you like, \u201cOh, you\u2019re a Switch,\u201d and, \u201cThis person is a that,\u201d and, \u201cThis person is a this,\u201d and, like, \u201cYou might be into all these things,\u201d and it was\u2014people got very excited about it and they shared the test. The point of that business was not to provide tests. It was selling something else. I can\u2019t even remember what it was. I didn\u2019t buy it. But in one of the more awkward transitions of my podcast career\u2014let\u2019s now come back to children.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you made\u2014I think it would be very\u2014it could be fun to try to create a readiness test which is not sexy enough. It would have to be called something else. But a test that people could take in two minutes that would give them information that they would find valuable or interesting or fascinating, to the extent that they would want to share the free readiness test with their friends.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because then, they\u2019re not saying, \u201cHey, I\u2019m not automatically one of those rich assholes who is just going to spend, who can burn $500 a month,\u201d which is not what I think. I think it\u2019s a fantastic investment, right? But they\u2019re not risking that social judgment by recommending someone take a free two-minute test. So I think that\u2019s another opportunity potentially. And then, where are you based, Niels?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I\u2019m outside Seattle.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Outside Seattle. All right. So in Seattle, you probably have some organization like this. If you were in the Bay Area, just because I\u2019m familiar with the Bay Area and I\u2019ve been there for so long, you mentioned first generation, immigrant, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, I would go speak at the Indus Entrepreneurs, TiE, in Silicon Valley. I would be\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Sorry. What did you say? The what entrepreneur?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Indus, I-N-D-U-S. Let\u2019s see if it still exists. The Indus Entrepreneurs, TiE, nonprofit organization. There it is. So tie.org, T-I-E, .org. Wow. Well, let\u2019s see here. The world\u2019s largest community of entrepreneurs. I\u2019m interested. Now, about the genesis of TiE. Yeah. So let\u2019s see. Board of trustees. Who\u2019s on the board of trustees? I\u2019m expecting\u2014I have high expectations, TiE. Let\u2019s see who we got. Yeah. Founder of Infosys. Yeah. Baller. Okay. Oh, this website\u2014they could use a website upgrade. Here we go. Jensen Huang. I believe TiE is one of the most extraordinary communities known to any industry.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I mean, they\u2019ve got some good testimonials. But the point of this is that back in the day when I lived in Mountain View and I would go volunteer for TiE because it was the only way for me to punch above my weight class and meet people who would otherwise be completely unreachable, it was basically all Indians, right? Fine. Great. But if you want to talk about first or second generation immigrants who are all in on learning, like this about as\u2014it\u2019s about as warm an audience as I can imagine.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> That\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. So you can check it out. But the point being, if you were like, \u201cHmm. All right. Well, look, I\u2019m going to take a trip anyway to the Bay Area,\u201d or maybe they have a chapter. Let\u2019s see. Chapters. I mean, it\u2019s freaking Seattle. Come on. I would think it\u2019d be\u2014well, they got Nairobi. They\u2019re going to make me scroll through all the countries. Man. All right. Come on now. There is\u2014I\u2019m boring the hell out of people. Yeah. There\u2019s a Seattle chapter.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> All right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But the\u2014and all over the US, Atlanta, Austin, Boston, Dallas, et cetera. So I would just say pitch to your dream customer or get up and talk and do\u2014see if you can get on the main stage at one of TiE\u2019s large events and give a presentation. This is another way that you can test things. Give a presentation. If it\u2019s good enough, if it\u2019s not, then too bad. Try again.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But if it\u2019s good enough, which does not have to be great, but if it\u2019s\u2014I suspect you\u2019d have a very warm audience. And then, you see what people ask you. You see what people mention and you see what people ask you afterwards, right? And then, you\u2019re hearing from the converted exactly what they want to know to join your church and I\u2019m just like, \u201cMan.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I feel like this is the bread and butter question to ask you. How do you get on the main stage at these events when you don\u2019t have a track record?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I think you do have a track record. I think you\u2019re underselling yourself. I think you point to some of these\u2014I think you point to your pedigree, right? So in other words, that third paragraph where I was like, \u201cUse that sentence: Niels worked at Cloudflare, ClassDojo, and Pocket Gems where he ran the highest grossing mobile game in the world in 2011.\u201d If\u2014well, first of all, it seems like TiE has branched out way beyond Indian entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley which is great. But depending on who you\u2019re pitching, you have to customize to who you\u2019re pitching, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But I would say it may be easier than you expect, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> So I didn\u2019t even know that this is a thing. So people reach out to organizations and say, \u201cI know you have a conference coming up. I would like to be a speaker there and here\u2019s what I do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> People definitely do that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I mean, look, I have not done this type of legwork in a very long time. But yeah, just cold email and pitch them.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Okay. Cool.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> I mean, it\u2019s\u2014you want to make sure it\u2019s thematically related to what they\u2019re doing, right? But they have the TiE Global Summit, TiEcon Silicon Valley. Maybe TiEcon Silicon Valley is more interesting because you could use it as a recruiting tool simultaneously, right? Depending on what your priorities are at the time. Definitely going to be a high density of venture capitalists, although perhaps you don\u2019t need that at this point. Yeah. Let\u2019s see, tieglobalsummit.org. What I would say is don\u2019t be too attached to getting on stage and spending an hour talking about how Mentava was born and this and this and this, right? Maybe it\u2019s the behavioral optimization or\u2014what did you call it? Motivation engineering? There\u2019s a term you used that I\u2019m blanking on.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Maybe it\u2019s that, right? Maybe it\u2019s commentary on disrupting and innovating education in the United States and, \u201cOh, by the way, I\u2019m the founder of this startup,\u201d and you spend two minutes on that. But like, \u201cHow did we get here?\u201d Okay. Now, I\u2019m giving a broader talk about my thoughts on education and where it\u2019s possible to stick in door wedges, so that we can gain a foothold in something interesting. I am really just shooting from the hip here, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah. You\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But there are lots of things because you\u2014I mean, look, you could have some side hobby\u2014I\u2019m making this up, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Let\u2019s just say you bump into the chairman of the board of trustees of TiE and\u2014I don\u2019t know. He is about to go on a trip and you\u2019re like, \u201cHuh. Seems like he\u2019s got an Olympic archery recurve bow that he\u2019s taking with him. Isn\u2019t that interesting?\u201d You get into this whole archery and you\u2019re like, \u201cYou know what? I\u2019m into archery,\u201d and he\u2019s like, \u201cWould you come speak on archery?\u201d and the answer should be, \u201cAbsolutely. I\u2019ll get on stage and talk about how to learn, how I approach the task of learning archery. And oh, by the way, I work at this company and here\u2019s a minute on Mentava.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cYes, the answer to that one\u2019s yes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As long as you have a very clear idea of what constitutes a success, getting on stage to talk in front of an interesting audience is not enough, right? What constitutes success? Is it recruiting? Is it feedback from people when you get offstage? If that\u2019s the case, guess what? You probably want an earlier speaking slot as opposed to a closing speaking slot. You probably don\u2019t want to be speaking on the last morning when a lot of people have already left, if they\u2019re coming in from out of town, this type of thing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019m not, by the way, saying that you should focus on TiE, even though I do think it\u2019s, at least when I was exposed to it, a very interesting organization. Again, an uncrowded channel. It\u2019s like, \u201cI might have been the only white person volunteering there.\u201d I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s ridiculous. This is an absolute goldmine of brilliant people and world-class entrepreneurs,\u201d and it\u2019s like, \u201cWhy isn\u2019t everybody here?\u201d So it\u2019s cool to see that they\u2019ve grown so much but\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think what\u2019s coming through so much out of these conversations with you is that it\u2019s like an exercise in thinking out of the box. It\u2019s like, \u201cOkay. I know what the goals are.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cWhere are the open channels? Where are the\u2014where were the opportunities that nobody else is looking for? Where are the shortcuts?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It\u2019s like\u2014I mean, it might not even be going to TiE, but you look at their team and you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, look at that.\u201d I\u2019m looking at the board of trustees and you might realize like, \u201cOh, wow. Kamal Agarwala follows me on X. Maybe he\u2019d be open to hopping on a phone call or a Zoom,\u201d and then\u2014or maybe you look at the bios and Anita is mother of three and you\u2019re like, \u201cWhere do the Indian moms in the US congregate? Are there WhatsApp groups? Are there message boards? Are there whatever?\u201d And I\u2019m not saying this is a good idea, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> But I do think there is value and I did this\u2014you might recall. Very early on, I mentioned <em>The 4-Hour Workweek<\/em> and the whatever the range was I gave, like 20- to 35-year-old tech-savvy males in San Francisco. That\u2019s very specific and\u2014but the target isn\u2019t the market, right? So the initial target is lead domino that you tip over that makes the rest easier to tip. The eventual market can be infinitely large, but the reason for being so specific\u2014there are many reasons. I gave a few already.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Another is that I can achieve a surround sound effect for a very small number of people where they feel like I am ubiquitous and that there is a perceived momentum that is very helpful, right? Because at that point in time, going back 2007, if I was on Gizmodo, TechCrunch, I think it was 42 or 43 Folders, Merlin Mann and a few other places at the same time, as far as Silicon Valley technorati were concerned, I was everywhere, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> There are other ways to approach that, right? It\u2019s like, \u201cOkay.\u201d Like Jdate for Jewish dating, okay? That\u2019s like they\u2019re very, very clear on who it\u2019s for and you could\u2014 I mean, look, it\u2019s like India is a subcontinent, right? It\u2019s a gigantic place. So I\u2019m not trying to paint with a broad brush. But it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay. Maybe I try to create a surround sound effect in a critical mass within the Indian communities in the United States.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019m not saying that\u2019s a good idea, but that is\u2014I would say that\u2019s a very achievable\u2014or at least it\u2019s very concrete, right? It\u2019s more precise than parents who want their kids to learn faster from a marketing perspective. Because then, you can figure out, \u201cWell, maybe I sponsor a TiE event. Okay. Maybe there\u2019s some app that they\u2019re particularly fond of for cohesion.\u201d I don\u2019t know what that would be. Again, making this up as I go.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Maybe there is\u2014who knows, right? This is going to sound antiquated, but Facebook groups or something. Who knows? And you\u2019re like, \u201cOkay. Well, maybe I or my wife can become active or somebody on the team and offer free trials in exchange for feedback and\u2014\u201d Nothing sneaky, nothing underhanded. It\u2019s just like I\u2014people underestimate, I think, the power of a surround sound effect for a very focused group. This just happens to be the thing that popped into my head, but there could have been a dozen other examples.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah. I think this resonates a lot because if that surround sound effect is going on, then at some point you\u2019re like, \u201cI keep hearing this name. I keep hearing this product. Let me go see what this is all about. I\u2019m curious. I want to look into it.\u201d That\u2019s all we need, that first hook.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Well, also, again, I\u2019m stereotyping here but this is my lived experience. It\u2019s like I would be very\u2014I would put a lot of money on black that the management organizers of TiE care a hell of a lot about education and education for their kids. I would put a lot of chips on that and maybe that\u2019s the way to make the ball roll downhill as opposed to pushing it uphill, right? You don\u2019t need to convince them. They are convinced. They just don\u2019t know that you exist.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> You know? And then, you can focus on the stuff that\u2019s really fun to focus on. I mean, a lot of this is really fascinating and, at some level, fun to focus on. But it\u2019s like then you can focus on making it as good as possible for them. I think that\u2019s more\u2014I think that\u2019s quite a fun piece of this whole puzzle, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Cool. I like this a lot.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. So that\u2019s an approach and it\u2019s a very human scale approach, right? I\u2019m not suggesting something that requires hiring McKinsey. I\u2019m not suggesting something that requires outsourcing analytics to some board, which I\u2019m certainly not averse to, but it\u2019s the amount of intelligence that you can absorb both explicitly. But also, kind of implicitly and intuitively by spending time in some of these concentrated environments. You\u2019re like, \u201cOh, okay. For at least this subset of Indus diaspora entrepreneurs, these are the questions and comments that come up when I use this two minute spiel that I ever find on Mentava.\u201d That\u2019s valuable. That\u2019s really valuable.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then, there are ways online that you can also convert that into very targeted paid advertising, right? This has turned into an infomercial for TiE, but it\u2019s like maybe they have a newsletter, maybe they have\u2014these are relatively low cost things and it\u2019s\u2014I mean, look, I\u2014I\u2019m going to get in so much trouble for this, but it\u2019s like, look, I\u2019ve gone to\u2014went to two universities in China. Also, probably, you could find an equivalent for first generation in the US, Chinese parents who are all in on education, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yep. Yeah. We had\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Chances are, if they made their way here, which is hard AF, they\u2019re going to care a hell of a lot about giving their kids as many advantages as possible and there\u2019s no convincing. They just don\u2019t need\u2014<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah. We had one customer who was, I think, Chinese, possibly Vietnamese, and she was saying she loved Mentava because she does not speak English very well. So she\u2019s like, \u201cI probably wouldn\u2019t be able to teach my kid to read. So I give them this app, I sit next to them, I do my work, and I just\u2014just to make sure that they kind of stay on task.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. That\u2019s super cool. So those are some of the things that I would be thinking about. I mean, I only know my toolkit, right? So I have lots of blind spots, tons of blind spots. But I will say that this is\u2014I think this type of product, even though I don\u2019t yet have kids, hope to remedy that soon, but this is the type of business I like a lot, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because you have premium pricing, you have to build a product that allows you to charge premium pricing, so there is upward pressure on product quality. And you can find very discrete populations that are already converted, right? It\u2019s like this is not\u2014Education is not a nice to have. By hook or crook, one way or the other, sure, you might get lucky and your kid is like the Ramanujan of self-study. But in most cases, kids are going to need nudges in the right direction. They\u2019re going to need tools, they\u2019re going to need guidance, and it\u2019s like people are willing to pay for that if they have the means, right?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> So in any case. Niels, people can find Mentava, obviously, at mentava, M-E-N-T-A-V-A, .com. Check it out. Who knows? Maybe the website will be revised by the time you see it, but they can find you on X at @nielshoven, N-I-E-L-S-H-O-V-E-N. I was dying to ask you about <em>Beauty and the Geek<\/em>, honestly, but I\u2019ll save that for our round two.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> All right.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> That\u2019s round two. Anything else that you\u2019d like to say or point people to? Any requests you\u2019d like to make of people listening or watching before we wind to a close and land the plane, at least for now?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> I think my one request to people, whether or not they try Mentava, is you will have to advocate for your child throughout their lives, especially when it comes to education, and never ever let anybody make you feel guilty for advocating for your kid.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Love that. That is a great place to close. Niels, thanks for taking the time, man. Great to see you.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Niels Hoven:<\/strong> Thank you so much, Tim.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tim Ferriss:<\/strong> Yeah. Love Mentava, the mission behind it, the purpose behind it, the ethos. Not to mention the product. I mean, go look at these testimonies on the website. It\u2019s bananas. To everybody listening, we\u2019ll include links to everything. Probably not the sex compatibility tests, but we\u2019ll include links to just about everything in the show notes at tim.blog\/podcast. If you search Niels, N-I-E-L-S, or Mentava, it will be the only result, so you\u2019ll find it there. Until next time, be just a bit kinder than it\u2019s necessary to others. But also, to yourself. Make sure that your compassion includes yourself and thanks for tuning in.<\/p>\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n<h3 id=\"niels-hoven-legal-conditions\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">DUE TO SOME HEADACHES IN THE PAST, PLEASE NOTE LEGAL CONDITIONS:<\/h3>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Tim Ferriss owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of The Tim Ferriss Show podcast, with all rights reserved, as well as his right of publicity.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>WHAT YOU\u2019RE WELCOME TO DO:<\/em>\u00a0<em>You are welcome to share the below transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles (e.g.,\u00a0<\/em>The New York Times<em>,\u00a0<\/em>LA Times<em>,\u00a0<\/em>The Guardian<em>), on your personal website, in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., Medium), and\/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include attribution to \u201cThe Tim Ferriss Show\u201d and link back to the tim.blog\/podcast URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>WHAT IS NOT ALLOWED:<\/em>\u00a0<em>No one is authorized to copy any portion of the podcast content or use Tim Ferriss\u2019 name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another\u2019s products or services. For the sake of clarity, media outlets are permitted to use photos of Tim Ferriss from\u00a0<\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/tim.blog\/media\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>the media room on tim.blog<\/em><\/a><em>\u00a0or (obviously) license photos of Tim Ferriss from Getty Images, etc.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/hop.clickbank.net\/?affiliate=infohatch&amp;vendor=J1R2C\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10614 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png\" alt=\"Profit Gen\" width=\"400\" height=\"217\" srcset=\"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px.png 400w, https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/05\/profit-gen400px-300x163.png 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><br \/><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Please enjoy this transcript of a live, unscripted working session with a founder, one of only two I\u2019ve done this year. Niels Hoven (@NielsHoven) is [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":13703,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[13],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-13711","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growth"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13711","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=13711"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13711\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/13703"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=13711"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=13711"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/parmaks.com\/Resources\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=13711"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}