This special episode is devoted to one deceptively simple question: How do you stay close to your partner over time through the inevitable exhaustion, misunderstanding, conflict, disappointment, and change?
This episode is brought to you by:
Relationship Tools That Work — Esther Perel, Brené Brown, Dr. Sue Johnson, Terry Real, and More on Conflict, Repair, and Lasting Love
Additional podcast platforms
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Castbox, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, Audible, or on your favorite podcast platform.
Transcripts
Show Notes
Connect with Esther Perel:
Connect with Brené Brown:
Connect with Brad Feld:
Connect with Jim Dethmer:
Connect with Sheila Heen:
Connect with the legacy of Dr. Sue Johnson (RIP):
Connect with Terry Real:
Connect with Diana Chapman:
Recommended Reading, Listening, & Viewing
Books
People
Timestamps
- [00:00:00] Intro from Tim.
- [00:01:58] Esther Perel: Daily appreciation, letter-writing, and “ask, don’t complain” — plus Gottman’s Four Horsemen.
- [00:08:21] Brené Brown: The 50/50 marriage myth, and why “family-focused” beats kid- or parent-focused.
- [00:12:02] Brad Feld: “Life dinners” — running the marriage as a monthly retrospective and sprint plan.
- [00:16:51] Jim Dethmer: Conscious candor — separating facts from stories, and revealing to be known, not right.
- [00:23:04] Sheila Heen: Why difficult conversations are the relationship; using humor to name the dynamic.
- [00:29:26] Dr. Sue Johnson: The “hold me tight” conversation — reaching from vulnerability past the demand-withdraw spiral.
- [00:40:14] Terry Real: “Normal marital hatred,” the harmony-disharmony-repair rhythm, and repair as a one-way street.
- [00:46:19] Diana Chapman: Repeatedly “killing off” the marriage to re-choose it, and calling forward the partner you want.
Quotes
“Don’t complain, ask. Behind every criticism there’s often a wish.”
— Esther Perel
“Everyone says marriage should be 50/50. It’s the biggest crock of bullshit I’ve ever heard. It’s never 50/50. Ever. … A partnership works when you can carry their 20 or they can carry your 20. And that when you both just have 20, you have a plan where you don’t hurt each other.”
— Brené Brown
“Just naming the thing oftentimes gets rid of a lot of the anxiety. Just labeling it, just calling it out and saying it out loud.”
— Brad Feld
“Before you start revealing, start listening.”
— Jim Dethmer
“We fight about how we fight. That’s the fight we usually have.”
— Sheila Heen
“What attachment science tells us is that emotional isolation is toxic for human beings. … In safe relationships, couples grow each other.”
— Dr. Sue Johnson
“The essential rhythm of all relationships is harmony, disharmony, and repair. Closeness, disruption, and a return to closeness.”
— Terry Real
“I believe that fear, when we’re present, is an intelligence that says, ‘Something needs to get learned.”
— Diana Chapman
Want to hear another episode with someone who thinks deeply about how we understand and relate to one another? Listen to my conversation with philosopher Alain de Botton, in which we discussed real-world versus academic philosophy, emotional intelligence, the underrated skill of listening, why “mean” is often simply “anxious,” status anxiety, practical pessimism, the value of rituals and tribes, “ordinary genius,” and much more.
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